I have a data point for your evangelical elite project. I recently went to my evangelical church’s website to see what they had on offer under the giant SERVE section of the website. There were several options available (e.g., parking, coffee, music, child care, etc.), all of which had something to do with the production of a Sunday service and none of which had anything to do with any sort of intellectual or spiritual endeavor (maybe with the exception of prayer team). I wonder how many evangelical churches even provide a default option for members to serve in their churches in intellectual or even non-physical capacities.
I’m looking forward to your work on the “evangelical elite” problem. You’re uniquely situated to analyze that issue and your voice is calibrated at the right level to advance the discussion. I could imagine FT publishing a think piece on that topic!
FWIW, I’ve raised related questions about ambition within my Presbyterian community. Even high-achieving men sometimes admit they throttled their career based on concerns about pride, selfish ambition, sacrificing time with family, etc. In addition to those concerns, I think there may be a latent belief among evangelicals that God’s preferred method of raising leaders is to call them up out of the blue (like David), so the right thing to do is keep your head down and live a quiet life but of course be willing to serve if the prophet shows up and anoints you. Among men, there seems to be a quiet disapproval of professional ambition except in sports, where ambition is absolutely expected and encouraged. Interestingly, some evangelical women have said they feel pressure to achieve.
Interesting digest this week Aaron with so much to talk about.
As a scientist with training in aerosol science, I experienced my own Gelman effect during Covid. so I can relate to your H1B/immigration story. Although in my case the pub health people were incompetent rather than lying as in your immigration example. But either way, I've gotten to where I just don't trust anything being reported on virtually any subject without checking it out myself.
My wife and I were on the early wave of internet dating, having met on Yahoo Personals back in the day. They started charging for them like a month later, and we both always joke how we would never have met if we'd had to pay for it. I guess we are just cheap GenXers. My son in college today says Tinder is just a hook up app and shouldn't be counted as a dating app.
I'll be interested to see your evangelical elite work; I remember your initial post asking about that and discussing the Evangelical Mind book. I suppose you'd have to start by defining both "evangelical" and "elite". I guess I'm kind of evangelical and elite-adjacent--I attend an evangelical church, have a PhD advisor in the National Academy, about 70 publications, and been invited to apply for jobs in Washington, but loathe the concept of ever moving there and I'm not that big a striver, preferring to influence my smaller pond. But even at my lower level, I find it much easier to talk to mainlines, Catholics, and seculars about work that I do so I'm not surprised when anyone drifts in one of those directions. While I can talk to my fellow congregants without a problem, evangelicals have a tendency to write anyone off as "liberal" if they don't know you personally and you code as off the reservation in any way. And that quite naturally is going to happen to anyone doing any type of work in elite circles because not everything fits all the political positions that have been brought into church.
I was raised Roman Catholic but left many years ago because the church’s teachings were in my mind made purposely mysterious. After being called by God during the Gulf War and returned home, I began attending a Roman Catholic church recommended to my wife and I by a PCA pastor whose church’s members wrote to me while I was deployed (even though I had never met them or attended their church). A couple of Sundays of more mysterious sermons from the priest had me heading to the PCA church. I remained in the PCA ever since and have been a ruling elder for nearly 25 years now. The teaching has always been Biblically based and clear. Questions are asked and answered.
I’m not sure what is causing these individuals to go to Roman Catholicism, but if it is to just get in good with the secular intellectual elite then I pity them.
I recently deleted a dating app (swipe-based catering to the under-40 Christian crowd) and didn’t really enjoy the experience. The ability to look at “fast facts” under someone’s profile (e.g. age, location, denomination, has/wants kids, views on drinking/smoking/politics, etc.) is a real double-edged sword: it’s helpful to gauge baseline compatibility, but it’s almost too easy to disqualify someone outright as opposed to learning and discussing these things over a few in-person dates. The format seems to take the humanity out of relationship-building, if that makes sense.
I’m also not sure that sort of niche dating app meaningfully improves the dating pool for small-town and rural singles: the majority of profiles I saw were 100+ miles from me; I saw the same ~200-300 profiles a dozen-plus times over 3 months; and had negligible success: 3-4 matches and one video-chat “date.” In fairness, I swiped right on < 10% of profiles, mainly due to distance.
Now that I have some more free time, I’m trying to spend more time out in public and socializing. I’d rather meet someone closer to home and in person, but might look online again in the future.
I wonder if the decline in dating app usage is due to because although it can theoretically expand your dating pool it ultimately falls far short of the traditional and far more organic method of meeting people in person through common interests/activities or acquaintances? I met my spouse before these were a thing so I have no personal experience but this is my impression. Anyone I know who has used one seems to have gone on lots of first dates to produce any relationships.
We also see some evidence today that younger people are socializing less, having less sex, etc than they did a generation ago, and I wonder if that is also due to technology allowing people to communicate with others without actually interacting in person, which leads to other things. I have teenagers and although they do have in-person social lives, it seems to me that they are not as active as mine was, largely because they can text, message, facetime or whatever with groups of other kids easily whereas when I was their age if I wanted to be social I had to actually make plans with others and show up in person.
Your first paragraph sums up my experience and opinion well.
Also, to the point of your second paragraph, I wonder if it has become less common over time for relationships to form within social circles. By that I mean couples may be part of a given social circle, but didn’t necessarily meet within that circle.
I enjoy the anecdotes on H1-Bs. You didn't spell this out, but my understanding is that what you're describing is the reverse of the letter of the law: in theory a job is supposed to be advertised to Americans and an H1-B visa is only supposed to be approved if no qualified Americans showed up. Of course, this rule is widely flouted. I wonder how much could be accomplished by rewarding whistleblowers and punishing violators for this.
In college, I worked in the office of a major grant-producing medical researcher whose group made extensive use of H1-Bs. I'd actually say, in contrast to how corporations mostly use H1-Bs, these researchers were closer to being the "good guys": they were mostly using H1-Bs to bring in experienced foreign researchers with specialized knowledge relevant to their research, in many cases for a temporary collaboration, and that research was directly relevant to improving the welfare of the human race. Most of the visa holders were from Europe, and none from a country poorer than China.
But even so, they flouted the requirement that the H1-B position be publicly advertised to Americans. The office manager kept them in a hard-to-see corner of her office, behind the door when it was open. She said, disingenuously, "Well, everyone in the labs comes in here at one time or another to pick something up from me, so I would qualify this as a public place." It was interesting to me that, even when the job description was written with an ultra-specific resume in mind that perhaps only one person on Earth qualified for, they STILL didn't want to run any kind of risk of an American actually applying for the H1-B job.
There's so much on this. Facebook got busted faking the jobs they claimed they couldn't fill in order to sponsor a green card. They did things like only advertise them in print and required a physical application be mailed to them.
I don't really want to offend faithful Roman Catholics too much over it, but if you don't just want to read the standard apologetical arguments over the matter, you may be entertained by some of Hans Fiene's (of Lutheran Satire) recent riffing with Catholics on Twitter. I've found him pretty clever and entertaining, at least within the context of a generally unfunny genre (Protestant vs. Catholic apologetics).
A lot of his material is focused on objections to the Catholic veneration of Mary, which I relate to, as someone who went to a Catholic HS and have found the Marian veneration to be one of the top things I could never get past.
H1-B: I work in software engineering, and have worked for many software companies. I have some experience with H1-B as well, as a hiring manager and leader. Some software companies use H1-B to pay less for talent. Every software company I've worked for that has hired engineers under H1-B, however, has ended up subtly or overtly taking advantage of those workers because unless they can find another company to take on sponsorship, they are unable to quit without having to leave the country. Time and again I've seen this create serious, intense stress for these engineers.
Dating sites/apps: A dozen years ago I met my current wife on a dating site. I intensely disliked the experience and had canceled my membership and was letting it run out when I was matched with my now wife. I am intensely fortunate that it worked out. I felt like chances were always slim given my age (at the time, pushing 50). But after my unpleasant dating-site experience I was fully ready to give up on ever finding a partner, and figure out how to have as fulfilling of a life as I could as a single man.
I knew some of those old WASPs--I was related to them. (They've all gone on to their rewards.) You're right about their code. I have stories. You're also right about bad manners among those who live for clicks and build their platforms with controversy and the latest news.
“A lively, expansive history of the Protestant and Catholic Reformations and the momentous changes they set in motion
This fast-paced survey of Western civilization’s transition from the Middle Ages to modernity brings that tumultuous period vividly to life. Carlos Eire, popular professor and gifted writer, chronicles the two-hundred-year era of the Renaissance and Reformation with particular attention to issues that persist as concerns in the present day. Eire connects the Protestant and Catholic Reformations in new and profound ways, and he demonstrates convincingly that this crucial turning point in history not only affected people long gone, but continues to shape our world and define who we are today.”
I have a data point for your evangelical elite project. I recently went to my evangelical church’s website to see what they had on offer under the giant SERVE section of the website. There were several options available (e.g., parking, coffee, music, child care, etc.), all of which had something to do with the production of a Sunday service and none of which had anything to do with any sort of intellectual or spiritual endeavor (maybe with the exception of prayer team). I wonder how many evangelical churches even provide a default option for members to serve in their churches in intellectual or even non-physical capacities.
I’m looking forward to your work on the “evangelical elite” problem. You’re uniquely situated to analyze that issue and your voice is calibrated at the right level to advance the discussion. I could imagine FT publishing a think piece on that topic!
FWIW, I’ve raised related questions about ambition within my Presbyterian community. Even high-achieving men sometimes admit they throttled their career based on concerns about pride, selfish ambition, sacrificing time with family, etc. In addition to those concerns, I think there may be a latent belief among evangelicals that God’s preferred method of raising leaders is to call them up out of the blue (like David), so the right thing to do is keep your head down and live a quiet life but of course be willing to serve if the prophet shows up and anoints you. Among men, there seems to be a quiet disapproval of professional ambition except in sports, where ambition is absolutely expected and encouraged. Interestingly, some evangelical women have said they feel pressure to achieve.
Thanks, Brandon. I will be working on these problems!
Interesting digest this week Aaron with so much to talk about.
As a scientist with training in aerosol science, I experienced my own Gelman effect during Covid. so I can relate to your H1B/immigration story. Although in my case the pub health people were incompetent rather than lying as in your immigration example. But either way, I've gotten to where I just don't trust anything being reported on virtually any subject without checking it out myself.
My wife and I were on the early wave of internet dating, having met on Yahoo Personals back in the day. They started charging for them like a month later, and we both always joke how we would never have met if we'd had to pay for it. I guess we are just cheap GenXers. My son in college today says Tinder is just a hook up app and shouldn't be counted as a dating app.
I'll be interested to see your evangelical elite work; I remember your initial post asking about that and discussing the Evangelical Mind book. I suppose you'd have to start by defining both "evangelical" and "elite". I guess I'm kind of evangelical and elite-adjacent--I attend an evangelical church, have a PhD advisor in the National Academy, about 70 publications, and been invited to apply for jobs in Washington, but loathe the concept of ever moving there and I'm not that big a striver, preferring to influence my smaller pond. But even at my lower level, I find it much easier to talk to mainlines, Catholics, and seculars about work that I do so I'm not surprised when anyone drifts in one of those directions. While I can talk to my fellow congregants without a problem, evangelicals have a tendency to write anyone off as "liberal" if they don't know you personally and you code as off the reservation in any way. And that quite naturally is going to happen to anyone doing any type of work in elite circles because not everything fits all the political positions that have been brought into church.
I was raised Roman Catholic but left many years ago because the church’s teachings were in my mind made purposely mysterious. After being called by God during the Gulf War and returned home, I began attending a Roman Catholic church recommended to my wife and I by a PCA pastor whose church’s members wrote to me while I was deployed (even though I had never met them or attended their church). A couple of Sundays of more mysterious sermons from the priest had me heading to the PCA church. I remained in the PCA ever since and have been a ruling elder for nearly 25 years now. The teaching has always been Biblically based and clear. Questions are asked and answered.
I’m not sure what is causing these individuals to go to Roman Catholicism, but if it is to just get in good with the secular intellectual elite then I pity them.
I recently deleted a dating app (swipe-based catering to the under-40 Christian crowd) and didn’t really enjoy the experience. The ability to look at “fast facts” under someone’s profile (e.g. age, location, denomination, has/wants kids, views on drinking/smoking/politics, etc.) is a real double-edged sword: it’s helpful to gauge baseline compatibility, but it’s almost too easy to disqualify someone outright as opposed to learning and discussing these things over a few in-person dates. The format seems to take the humanity out of relationship-building, if that makes sense.
I’m also not sure that sort of niche dating app meaningfully improves the dating pool for small-town and rural singles: the majority of profiles I saw were 100+ miles from me; I saw the same ~200-300 profiles a dozen-plus times over 3 months; and had negligible success: 3-4 matches and one video-chat “date.” In fairness, I swiped right on < 10% of profiles, mainly due to distance.
Now that I have some more free time, I’m trying to spend more time out in public and socializing. I’d rather meet someone closer to home and in person, but might look online again in the future.
Good luck.
I wonder if the decline in dating app usage is due to because although it can theoretically expand your dating pool it ultimately falls far short of the traditional and far more organic method of meeting people in person through common interests/activities or acquaintances? I met my spouse before these were a thing so I have no personal experience but this is my impression. Anyone I know who has used one seems to have gone on lots of first dates to produce any relationships.
We also see some evidence today that younger people are socializing less, having less sex, etc than they did a generation ago, and I wonder if that is also due to technology allowing people to communicate with others without actually interacting in person, which leads to other things. I have teenagers and although they do have in-person social lives, it seems to me that they are not as active as mine was, largely because they can text, message, facetime or whatever with groups of other kids easily whereas when I was their age if I wanted to be social I had to actually make plans with others and show up in person.
Your first paragraph sums up my experience and opinion well.
Also, to the point of your second paragraph, I wonder if it has become less common over time for relationships to form within social circles. By that I mean couples may be part of a given social circle, but didn’t necessarily meet within that circle.
I enjoy the anecdotes on H1-Bs. You didn't spell this out, but my understanding is that what you're describing is the reverse of the letter of the law: in theory a job is supposed to be advertised to Americans and an H1-B visa is only supposed to be approved if no qualified Americans showed up. Of course, this rule is widely flouted. I wonder how much could be accomplished by rewarding whistleblowers and punishing violators for this.
In college, I worked in the office of a major grant-producing medical researcher whose group made extensive use of H1-Bs. I'd actually say, in contrast to how corporations mostly use H1-Bs, these researchers were closer to being the "good guys": they were mostly using H1-Bs to bring in experienced foreign researchers with specialized knowledge relevant to their research, in many cases for a temporary collaboration, and that research was directly relevant to improving the welfare of the human race. Most of the visa holders were from Europe, and none from a country poorer than China.
But even so, they flouted the requirement that the H1-B position be publicly advertised to Americans. The office manager kept them in a hard-to-see corner of her office, behind the door when it was open. She said, disingenuously, "Well, everyone in the labs comes in here at one time or another to pick something up from me, so I would qualify this as a public place." It was interesting to me that, even when the job description was written with an ultra-specific resume in mind that perhaps only one person on Earth qualified for, they STILL didn't want to run any kind of risk of an American actually applying for the H1-B job.
There's so much on this. Facebook got busted faking the jobs they claimed they couldn't fill in order to sponsor a green card. They did things like only advertise them in print and required a physical application be mailed to them.
Hey Aaron , what would you say is the main thing keeping you from converting to Catholicism yourself?
I am evangelical but mostly that’s just cause how I was raised and the inertia of that… but have been thinking maybe I should explore Catholicism …
I actually don't feel attracted to Catholicism and don't find it compelling. So I actually don't need anything to stop me from becoming Catholic.
I don't really want to offend faithful Roman Catholics too much over it, but if you don't just want to read the standard apologetical arguments over the matter, you may be entertained by some of Hans Fiene's (of Lutheran Satire) recent riffing with Catholics on Twitter. I've found him pretty clever and entertaining, at least within the context of a generally unfunny genre (Protestant vs. Catholic apologetics).
A lot of his material is focused on objections to the Catholic veneration of Mary, which I relate to, as someone who went to a Catholic HS and have found the Marian veneration to be one of the top things I could never get past.
H1-B: I work in software engineering, and have worked for many software companies. I have some experience with H1-B as well, as a hiring manager and leader. Some software companies use H1-B to pay less for talent. Every software company I've worked for that has hired engineers under H1-B, however, has ended up subtly or overtly taking advantage of those workers because unless they can find another company to take on sponsorship, they are unable to quit without having to leave the country. Time and again I've seen this create serious, intense stress for these engineers.
Dating sites/apps: A dozen years ago I met my current wife on a dating site. I intensely disliked the experience and had canceled my membership and was letting it run out when I was matched with my now wife. I am intensely fortunate that it worked out. I felt like chances were always slim given my age (at the time, pushing 50). But after my unpleasant dating-site experience I was fully ready to give up on ever finding a partner, and figure out how to have as fulfilling of a life as I could as a single man.
I knew some of those old WASPs--I was related to them. (They've all gone on to their rewards.) You're right about their code. I have stories. You're also right about bad manners among those who live for clicks and build their platforms with controversy and the latest news.
2025 reading recommendation that many subscribers will like - https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300240030/reformations/
“A lively, expansive history of the Protestant and Catholic Reformations and the momentous changes they set in motion
This fast-paced survey of Western civilization’s transition from the Middle Ages to modernity brings that tumultuous period vividly to life. Carlos Eire, popular professor and gifted writer, chronicles the two-hundred-year era of the Renaissance and Reformation with particular attention to issues that persist as concerns in the present day. Eire connects the Protestant and Catholic Reformations in new and profound ways, and he demonstrates convincingly that this crucial turning point in history not only affected people long gone, but continues to shape our world and define who we are today.”