My church has been getting involved in a ministry called LifeWise that teaches public school students Bible curriculum during school hours. It's been growing rapidly, and there's a lot of excitement about it, but I worry that as it draws more attention the ministry will be subject to either legal or cultural opposition, or else missional compromise.
Have you heard of Joseph Minich's Bulwarks of Unbelief? Minich is a Reformed scholar who studies the intellectual history of ideas and works in lesser known, smaller, yet more agile institutions (such as the Davenant Institute, which you might remember from having Alastair Roberts on a while ago) that allow a degree of intellectual freedom not always possible at larger, bureaucratized educational or religious institutions. The book is a high level treatment of the causes of unbelief, similar to Taylor's A Secular Age. It posits that the plausibility of Christianity (or theistic belief more generally) eroded with changes borne out of the industrial revolution, which first hit the lower classes in the early 1800's and then the middle classes in the mid 1900's. (I have a long review of Minich's book on my Substack and a much shorter one at Mere Orthodoxy, if you're interested.)
I think part of interacting with the "negative world" is coming to terms with the plausibility structures of the post-industrial world that tend to push us toward unbelief and make it the default posture among most modern people. You might be particularly interested in remarks about how ancient and medieval Christians tended to view the city as the place where God (via his order) was most present, which is diametrically opposed to some modern Christian views of the city as a place of evil.
This is totally false: "Few of the Founding Fathers held anything remotely approximating orthodox Christian faith"
This quite misleading: "At the time of the Founding probably no more than 10% of Americans belonged to any church."
He's correct that professing Christianity is the status marker Renn is primarily talking about. And society has never perfectly aligned with the teachings of Christ. But to pretend there hasn't been a massive change in our lifetimes... is block headed, maybe even hard hearted.
Allow me to point out that Renn is doing social analysis, not theology proper. That means he isn't explaining how those who want to follow Christ will always suffer persecution. He's doing something much less common. He's making sense out of the massive societal changes happening. This is especially valuable in our day when so many are doing dumb theology that takes the ultimate answers provided in scripture as an excuse to skip all intermediate analysis and explanation. 'Christian truth is always resisted by society, therefore nothing has changed.'
There's really no excuse for this kind of thing. It's not as though scripture would lead someone to believe that all societies are equally resistant to Christianity. Something else makes this level of stubborn stupidity attractive.
It would be great to hear a substantive response to the content. But I guess disappointment is what I deserve, having expectations of reasoned debate on social media. I should just ditch the app and go back to just reading these in my inbox.
Jacobs seems to read Renn's article to argue that there were more "real Christians" in America at some time in the past than there are now, or that American society was "more Christian" in the past than it is now. Neither of those is Renn's thesis.
I would put Renn's thesis as follows: in the past, America's elites and the majority of its population viewed Christianity positively and aspired to be perceived as Christian, whether they really believed or not. By contrast, today, America's elites, and an ever-growing share of its population, view Christianity negatively, and aspire to distance themselves from any association with it.
Jacobs asks: "Does Renn seriously think that the slaves in the cotton fields singing their spirituals were living in a Christianity-positive world?"
Yes, I suspect he does. That's why those slaves were singing Christian spirituals instead of chanting Marxist slogans, like BLM protesters likely would today.
Again, Renn's point is not that the America of the past ago was "more Christian" or "had more Christians" than the America of today. The point is that even oppressed people back then generally viewed Christianity positively and invoked it as both a source of spiritual comfort and a prospective driver of social progress. Nowadays, by contrast, Americans (oppressed or not) are more likely to view Christianity as a source of oppression and an inhibitor of social progress.
Virginia, thanks. The various references people have made to slavery or Jim Crow are bizarre. Those people were clearly being oppressed for being black, not Christian. Their oppression would not have ended if they renounced their faith.
Us Jews have lived in the negative world for >2000 years, and the last few weeks have shown that we still live in the negative world. I don't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of the evangelical landscape, but there are important lessons you may want to learn from smaller groups like us.
Some ideas to consider:
1. A more instrumentalist approach to the government, rather than an attempt to make the government impose your policy agenda on the population at large. Orthodox Jews in the US have done this in many ways where they live - support to educational institutions (grants for security, for science education, for meals, etc), allowing for religious accommodations in jobs, etc. Also lobbying both parties to secure favorable stances towards matters of critical importance - antisemitism, supporting Israel, etc.
2. A greater attempt at inward strengthening of communities to encourage trust within the community (which also makes young people think twice about leaving). This means turning away from the individualist homesteader-in-the-woods approach. A lot of American libertarian ideas are toxic to community building, which is of utmost importance in a negative world. Examples include babysitting/childcare sharing (for example, our small community uses whatsapps to coordinate babysitting across parents and teenagers), reaching out to those who are sick, communal charity, etc. It seems to my eye that many churches are good at this already, but it gets harder when everyone is dispersed over a wide geographic area.
3. A more deliberate approach to relocation. Orthodox Jews for example will not move places/take a job somewhere if there is not a community already established there. Here's an example I have shared before about how this is done: https://communities.ou.org/fair
4. A more deliberate approach to encouraging marriage to others who share similar values.
5. Emphasizing the positive/joyful aspects of your religion rather than bemoaning the decline of society. People who are tired of secular culture's emptiness will find you, but only if there is emotional resonance
6. Being resolute and unapologetic about your commitment - one of the comments below mentioned Daniel, who is an excellent example of how to retain your faith in exile. One of the advantages of our diverse society is that this is generally well received as long as others do not think you are imposing ideas on them.
7. Creating ownership - for us it is in schools, synagogues, etc. but also in the re-establishment of sovereignty in our land. Aaron has talked a lot about this. But when you are in exile, be prepared to move on
8. Education of youth - young, teens, young adults. My impression is that a lot of the current environment is shallow. I have met many adults who went to Catholic school and even send their own kids to Catholic school who cannot explain basic concepts to me - like what is Advent? Parents and pastors can have a lot more influence here than what they print in a textbook at school (which most kids do not read anyway).
9. Summer camp to build cultural and personal ties over dispersed communities. Camp is a huge (and expensive) part of American Jewish culture which creates lifelong ties
10. Creation of a social media substructure that encourages your faith, rather than a hopeless attempt to wall it off. Of course parental controls are important, but even more important is that your children will want to follow Christians online.
From my history lessons, there are a lot of things here that resemble early Christianity, which arose from Judaism and probably took many lessons from the Jewish diaspora of the ancient world.
I would add two quick points from my experience in Finland as a conservative Lutheran working in Christian ministries in eg. urban environment with students and with negative world-attuned colleagues and churches.
1) The converts will start coming. They already have and their amount will increase given the reasons they now come. Salient groups thus far among the young, roughly: disillusioned former New Atheist types, former New Agers. Not many yet, but clearly more than a decade ago. The stuff they got into was disappointing, to say the least.
2) Thrive in controversy, but do not look for it (ie. be real, don’t be a phony grifter). Taleb‘s antifragility is a thing that actually works when the gospel is clear and upfront. Have a bowl where you can direct and collect the attention (congregations, YouTube channels).
A case in point here would be the Mission Diocese whose bishop Juhana Pohjola is prosecuted alongside Päivi Räsänen for teaching the sixth commandment as some of you might know.
For 20 years now there has been controversy after another around the diocese. And exponential growth. Don’t shy away, be bold and the Lord will provide and be faithful.
With respect to Judaism, whether Orthodox or not, it can only survive in Western democracies. The totalitarian states of the 20th century were hostile to Judaism. Post 1945, and the creation of the state of Israel, the Arab nations ethically cleansed their states of any Jews, notwithstanding those communities had been there for centuries. There are insulated Christian communities like the Mennonites, but they can only exist in societies that practice tolerance. The current western societies are not tolerant, and therefore I predict that sooner or later, all faiths (except perhaps Islam) will either have to make their peace with the "woke" ideology or they will be persecuted out of existence. Christianity is just the first; the others will not be around much longer.
Judaism cannot only survive in western democracies. France is a Western democracy but things arent so great for Jews over there. Judaism can only survive in protestant, constitutional-democratic-republics, of which there is only 1 (and only for now).
Upstate NY: This is a great comment that is inspiring to read, and will provide me many insights as a Christian teacher and elder.
One question, though, to really address the shift to a negative society. How do we deal with public schools wanting to teach our third graders about anal sex, etc., without encountering the response that WE are trying to force our values on everyone else? I am responding to your point #1.
When I grew up, in public schools, I had many Jewish classmates. They attended Hebrew school at a certain age. They shared info with the rest of us in music class about Jewish holidays, the story of the Maccabees and the origin of Hanukkah, etc., that probably would not be permitted today. No one tried to indoctrinate them with homosexual propaganda.
What approach is taken today by Orthodox Jews? Do they send any children to public schools, or is it 100% private and home schooling? I sent my boys to private Christian school from K-12. Should I stop caring what goes on in public schools, even if I think it will eventually destroy our civilization?
Thank you. As a twenty something, I live in inner-city San Francisco. One of the most Godless, and God-hating places in America. It was just assumed practice at our church that we would live in Christian Communities is the city. Sure, some was because of the great expensive of living there, but a lot was about the mutual support that proximate community provided. During one period there were about 12 of us from our church that choose to live in the same apartment building in say 5 different units, mostly singles, men, women and some married couples. We had a church home group in the building. It was a safe place of support, discipleship and a mission field all in one.
Thanks for sharing. I think groups like Orthodox Jews have been very successful. How many lessons can be applied to the much larger and heterogeneous evangelical world is unclear, but it's an interesting model to study for sure.
That's all very nice...For you. Your coethnics have made certain that us white goyim will be broken on the rack of the state if we try and behave in such an insular fashion.
Just read this from Rabbi Sacks. Thanks for these comments. Yes I do think we have a lot to learn from Orthodox Jews, and Orthodox Christians in Muslim majority countries, too. Sacks though takes it further to encourage the multiculturalism and the dignity of difference rather than choosing the pathway of enforced uniformity. I share it here: https://www.rabbisacks.org/archive/what-is-anti-semitism-moment-magazine/
A view from England. I know that your view is that the American political and cultural tradition has all the resources needed to address contemporary problems. I suspect this is hubristic and that there are much bigger spiritual battles heating up that are beyond the capability of the American political and cultural tradition. 2 Thess 2 describes a "strong delusion" sent by God himself on those who "refuse to love the truth". This principle - if it is in play today - would portend something very serious for the American political and cultural tradition.
I think the situation in England is more stark. For almost 1500 years, for better or worse, the history of the British Isles has been shaped by Christianity. There has been an Alliance of one form or another between the church and the rulers of Britain since at least the time of the very first Archbishop of Canterbury in AD597. This evolving Alliance has, over the centuries, created a profound co-dependency between church and country, like two woodland vines twisting in and out of each other to the point where they can no longer be disentangled without uprooting both of them. But this is now changing – the uprooting has begun. Particularly since WW1 and WW2, the British state has been choosing a secular path which explicitly rejects this Alliance. The institutional church is not only losing influence in the corridors of power, it is also increasingly irrelevant to the population at large. But the institutional church remains deeply invested in the Alliance and, like a jilted lover, seeks to cling on to whatever influence and relevance remains. As the nation slides into secularism, so also must everything invested in the nation, including the institutional church. There are serious consequences. By embracing the lie of secular liberal democracy (the current British political and cultural tradition) and thereby rejecting the wisdom of God, Britain is adopting attitudes and courses of action that are increasingly unwise – the nation appears to be adrift from reality, and at times insanely so. This is God’s judgement: those who reject his divine wisdom are given over to an unsound mind to make their own choices and experience the harsh consequences of departing from divine wisdom. This judgment applies as much to the British church as it applies to Britain. The time is now to wake up to reality – the Alliance between church and state (in its British form) was always unholy and its inevitable termination, which is very painful, should be embraced rather than resisted. That wake-up means (i) dis-investing in the Unholy Alliance that has compromised the church for centuries and (ii) re-investing in true gospel allegiance to Jesus Christ, in the obedience of faith, in the expression of loyal love to our God and Saviour, trusting in him rather than relying on the power structures of this world and its wisdom (aka as its political and cultural tradition).
History has shown the Protestant State Church to be, for whatever reason, the most wretched of all ecclesial forms. England is no exception here, just another example of an unbroken pattern. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were able to do the throne-and-altar thing and preserve authentic Catholicism or Orthodoxy (though some of the features of these traditions that we Protestants find objectionable are surely a product of this relationship), but my sense is that the European Protestant state churches have been like the 21st century US Mainline since at least the days of John Wesley.
Perhaps it's the lack of any sources of ecclesial authority outside a given nation-state, and the relatively low status accorded to tradition, that allows the state bureaucracy to totally subjugate the Protestant state church to its soulless value system.
You raise some important points, though I suggest your conclusions are awry.
The roots of our current problems (both in the UK and in the US) are to be found in the four fundamental errors of the patristic church. These errors have perpetuated down the centuries in different forms. The example you cite of "throne and altar" is good example of two of those patristic errors combined. As the patristic church embraced the power structures of its day, it turned away from the kingdom principles demonstrated by the Christ (eg Matt 4:8-10; Matt 20:25-26; Matt 20:16; Mark 10:31; 1Cor 1:27). "Throne and Altar" is like Christ making alliance with Herod! It is an absurd and horrific idea. It is utterly remarkable that it ever gained traction - and yet it did and continues to have traction with some. The UK versions of the patristic errors are a bit different to the "throne and altar" expressions in the countries of medieval Europe, but they are clearly discernible over time and in the present.
If you look behind the word "throne" to see the "rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6) then the horror of the patristic alliance with Constantine becomes all the more stark. This was an Unholy Alliance and it continued through Charlemagne and various other war criminals to the present day. It takes multifarious forms in many so-called "Christian" nations and in the US too.
This is relevant to Aaron's original post, because the four patristic errors manifest in the US too. The post-Christian culture he describes is the unravelling of this Unholy Alliance.
I don't believe I've heard of the four patristic errors. Is this your rubric, or someone else's?
I'm not sure if I fully agree with your position or not. I believe Christians should govern according to Christian values. I believe that tight state-church links are never good for the church in the long run. Though there is nothing wrong with a historically Christian nation trying to preserve its Christian character and history. I'd say it's better for a country to be culturally Christian than not; it's better to be in Positive World than Negative World.
When Aaron first posted his classification of positive, neutral and negative worlds, I was immediately fascinated by his observation. The fundamental question is "what is God up to and what does he expect of us in this time and place?" Turning to the Lord with that question has opened my eyes to scripture in new ways and it has also led me to re-evaluate the course of God's kingdom in history since the apostles.
There are specific differences for different countries, but the UK course has lessons for the US (and vice versa). The turning point from positive to negative is not recent - it has been going on for about 150 years. It is the acceleration in the past 20 that Aaron has focussed on. But the roots of this present predicament are much older - they are found in the patristic era - and the challenge to our assumptions and presumptions is surprisingly painful if we are to be found faithful. The four patristic errors I mentioned before are my attempt to identify root cause of our present problem set.
Modern Britian is established on Judaeo-Christian values (or perhaps, more accurately on Judaeo-patristic values) and even the secular post-Christian values that are now displacing them are still essentially based on those patristic values. The UK Government has defined basic British Values to be: democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance for those of different faiths and beliefs. The average British churchgoer sees no problems with the set of “British Values” published by the UK Government in 2014 because they recognise them as versions of christian values albeit secularised. A counterfactual Britain, uninfluenced by patristic Christianity, would exhibit the much more cruel and vicious vices of Greece and Rome. The Human Rights Act (1998) and the Equality Act (2010) could never have been conceived without the dominant influence of patristic Christianity – even though both these Acts give rise to fundamental desecrations of the notion of the Image of God and are being applied in a cruel, vicious and anti-christian manner (to the surprise and dismay of many British Christians). But how do the "British Values" of post-christian Britain ascribe glory to God? And if they don’t, how should British believers regard them? What if the whole concept of “values” is lawyer-led dead-letter codification that sucks the living faith out of Christianity (see 2Cor 3:6)? What if the approach whereby "values" guide organisations (including church) are just the expression of the empty philosophy of this age? What if these values become the markers of allegiance to the British state? What if the introduction of Basic British values marks the point at which the British state signals that biblical Spirit-led faith in Jesus Christ is a designated threat?
There is a lot to unpack - and it is quite simple, but very likely to shock.
I think Aaron's "positive world" vs "negative world" is very insightful, but it's not adequate. And building a response strategy on the basis of his classification is at risk of superficiality too.
To clarify my original point: the EO seem to better able do the state church thing while holding fast to their historic doctrine and principles. Perhaps this is in part because of the long history of the Byzantine Empire, EO is sort of weird when it *isn't* a state church. E.g., the weirdness of an Antiochian Orthodox Church filled with nothing but Anglo-American Southerners -- Antioch being a Muslim Turkish backwater.
But if you take the ROC, my understanding (and I'll take correction if someone knows this better) is that it didn't really compromise on doctrine under the USSR. It was suppressed and constrained, and it avoided criticizing the government, but it basically retained its historic doctrines despite living under a militant atheist government.
I have to think that if Romanov-era Christianity had been dominated by an official Protestant "Church of Russia", its leadership after 1917 would have been quickly filled with a bunch of John Shelby Spongs who more or less affirm atheism and explain that Jesus is just a metaphor for the proper application of Marxist-Leninist principles.
I agree that the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches managed to avoid changing their doctrine to accommodate the governments they got entangled with.
But did they give us an example of shaping societies in a Christian way over the long term? The Catholic countries of Europe and Latin America have low birth rates, corruption in government, etc. Italy, of all places, is the lowest in birth rate in all of Europe. Catholic Italy and Orthodox Greece are prime examples of corruption in government. My primary objection to the Catholic integralists is that the historical examples of Catholic integralism (e.g. France, Mexico) led to huge backlash against the Catholic Church and are now very weak, religiously.
I agree with most of this. My point is really just to remark on the historical problems with Protestant state churches rather than to advocate for being more like the RCC or EO.
I have a theory that Catholicism also does especially poorly in places where the Reformation gathered some momentum and was only defeated with great brutality. I.e. France and Bohemia/Czechia.
I haven’t spent much time in Europe but my sense is that European Protestantism is especially degenerate. Birth rates do not tell the whole story; I believe that Southern European Catholicism is not quite as degenerate as Northern European Protestantism.
What to blame besides state churches? Maybe a longer history of economic development is part of it. I also have a theory that some of the most pious Protestants left Europe, where perhaps they could have led revival movements, for America. A “piety drain”, as opposed to a brain drain.
I think the Western/American church has gotten very comfortable being in the majority of the culture and has forgotten how to exist as the upstart in a hostile culture. I think we have many examples and principles to remember and draw on from both the Old and New Testaments between the parts of the exile and the early church experience but it seems like most of the church is either in complete denial that there is an issue or is in complete panic looking for political solutions which can perhaps delay things but probably can't solve them. Finding that balance will be tricky. A lot of the former types will probably forego shining a light on the world in order to become a mirror of it. But it is also true that some of the latter types seem to pick fights over molehills rather than the essentials. Tony Evans gave a great sermon a year or two ago about this issue from Daniel and on the fact that God is still in control even in a hostile secular culture, but that God didn't act until Daniel drew his "line in the sand" so to speak. Thing is, that line will probably be different for different churches and for individual Christians depending on their circumstances and work environments. I fear even among Christians that do know what time it is there will be a lot of time wasted over arguments about where the line should be drawn, rather than actually getting to the business of drawing them and helping people become resilient enough to stand by them.
I don't think churches are ready for what is coming, because I don't think pastors are ready for what is coming on the evangelism/church education front. We were mostly all educated in the positive or neutral world. It is hard to adapt. Here is an example: Someone comes to the church for the first time with no background in Christianity at all. None. No one off VBS as a kid, no friend who took them to church, nothing. No Bible in the home. Pastors are used to lots of different kinds of people, the atheist who might be more well read on certain subjects, the rebel who knows better, the one who just wandered away and stopped coming, those returning to the faith of their parents or grandparents, etc... but this experience of someone who has no Christian background, not even a Bible story, that will be a new experience for the church and for pastors and it will become more and more common.
I've played competitive ultimate frisbee since 1987. In 1995, I came to know the Lord Jesus as my Savior. My life turned inside out and upside down and I am grateful for that -- I needed to be alive as I was dead in my sins. Since then my faith in Christ has not limited my ability to play ultimate or obtain roster spots. Except recently, I get the sense or impression that teams (same age bracket) no longer seek me out to be part of their roster for regional or national tournaments. It doesn't seem to be a matter of skill, experience or ability. And I do shower regularly. I wonder about the unspoken negative attitude toward Christian players that organizers and captains may have. My spiritual spidey sense give me the vibe that something has changed over the past few years -- teams are less welcoming to Christian players.
You should try recruiting an all Christian team and then emerge victorious in said tournaments. But also Im sorry about the prejudice you feel yourself to be facing, its so lame :/
I see the Christian Church as the primary way to heal the huge gender divide in our country. They need to be courageous, united and outspoken. To acknowledge the fact that the genders are equal but different. To celebrate their differences and the fact that the Lord made them complimentary.
Christian Churches must counter the negative treatment given boys & men in our society. Not discuss how they can be 'better' or 'good' men, but how to be proud of their masculinity. If your not sure what that would look like, just lift up boys & men the way we have lifted up girls & women for the last 30 years.
Do you think it's even a possibility? What are your thoughts about my supposition? Thank you
I believe that the three-worlds story applies to more than just Christianity. There are many values in our society that have gone from positive to neutral to negative. Patriotism. Achievement. Rigorous thinking. etc.
IMHO, social media is the biggest factor. It allows a small minority to spread their message very quickly to large numbers of people. Another factor that can't be ignored is just the general degeneration of our society. As you have pointed out, any type of Christianity is actively discriminated against. The elites in our cultural industries and in (most of) our educational institutions are actively hostile at worst, or just ambivalent at best, to what used to be considered normal. I don't know what is happening in the US as I live in Canada, but up here every weekend thousands of protestors are supporting Palestine and chanting death threats against Jewish people. Individual Jewish businesses are being targeted and Jewish people are having their homes vandalized. This would have been unheard of a generation ago. I believe things are going to get worse before they get better, and I fear for the US when the next Presidential election takes place.
I live in very liberal Seattle, in the city proper. One has to be quite careful what one says in public. This fear of "being cancelled or shunned or labeled racist, homophobic, etc." is quite real. Even the Bible-teaching churches I visit pay heed to this secular ethic and are careful/often apologetic when talking about "those issues." Some are speaking Biblical truth, but bend over backwards to look at tolerant as they can and not be labelled as bigoted, racist or intolerant. To get ahead, remain respected in the community you need to "virtual signal" with "the right" answers. I choose to just not talk about "those issues" openingly, and when asking I generally sidestep the issues. Only with those I have vetted and trust do I talk opening about my traditional Christian values and worldview. I can't see any benefit in talking opening in my community at large. It will only lead to needless loss and/or an unhealthy martyr complex.
Mr. Renn, I found your work as I consider converting to Christianity. As part of the elite culture, my friends and family have no framework for appreciating or participating in my journey. They think I’m making an error; they believe that the authentic loving spirit of Christianity is upheld by the secularists. They see no generosity of spirit amid the self declared Christians. What counsel would you give me?
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:27
KJ21
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
That your friends/cohort think you are in error is to be expected. You, by God's grace, have been given eyes of faith. Others are still in a worldview and self-view of darkness and false reality.
Have compassion on them--"for they know not what they do" Luke 23:24. There are many perks to being in the "elite world" or "wealthy world" or "powerful world." But those relishing these realms of power/acclaim must adopt the rules of that group. We adopt the values of those whose approval we seek. There is specific "virtue signaling" and ideology and/or "group think" that is required of every group--even the thug gangs on the street. Christians are too caught in this maze of group cultural expectations/requirements and the fear of "cancelling" it elicits. Out of "christian culture" and subsequent "christian virtue signalling" come much of the "no generosity of spirit" your cohort rightly see. I was well trained as youth to "gay bash" and call women that had abortions-"murders", etc. This "virtual signaling" proved you were "in the club" and in time could be promoted in rank. I find it best to agree with Christianity critics where they are right, or even partially so and be humble about the arrogance (past and present) of myself and much of the church. I would say that true "Followers of Christ"--the term I prefer as "Christian" has no meaning anymore, need to be both prophetic and outspoken against the broken corrupt world and the broken and corrupt institutional church. Then our story may make sense to those on the outside. We can't bring them faith, but we can lower some of the obstacles.
I wish you well on your faith journey. Hang around with those that truly love Jesus and see/experience Him working. For "faith is better caught than taught".
My circumstances are the same. Your choice must be to leave your friends and family behind and forge new ties based on your religious beliefs.
Just gradually slip away. They will not grant any credence to your religious point-of-view. Don’t waste your breath or your time. Your living example as a fulfilled practicing Christian will be the best argument. In this instance, what speaks loudest is what you DO, while refraining from saying much at all.
One by one, your friends and family will find over time that their hollow secular beliefs let them down and, at times, betray them outright. At that point, they MIGHT be open to hearing your perspective...but probably not.
We know the fundamental nature of our own kind, don’t we?
Jonas, I don't fully understand what you are asking for here, but I'd be honored to speak with you about it. Please reach out to me at aaron@aaronrenn.com and we can set up a time to talk. Aaron.
I think my question would be at what point in the Negative World do you lean into going to jail, losing your job, etc.
Do/should people quit their jobs when their companies have a pride month event at work? What if they didn’t attend for years and it’s mandatory now? What if it’s mandatory to not only attend, but participate in a way where they couldn’t just hide in the corner and leave early?
At some point the Negative World may induce Christians to experience hardship for certain Christian doctrines, but not “Christianity” altogether (I love Jesus and I’m openly gay, etc.) What doctrines are worth jail/economic hardship?
I used to work at Target, in like 2021. I was a 22 year old white guy, very affable and amicable. This was in Eugene, OR, one of the most nihilist, vile, darkest, anti-American, and anti-Christian cities in the country. The simple fact was that since I was pretty well-liked by all of my coworkers (raging leftists tho they be), and I was also a guy who was observably and indisputably kind to all, it gave me a lot of latitude in truthfully expressing myself. Maybe Im gifted with tact, or maybe humor, idk- not saying everyone would have similar results.
But if a girl made flippant anti-american comments, I would be fully comfortable to push back in a way that was not overly combative, but which was also so succinct and correct that nobody listening could dispute the validity of my statement or the stupidity of hers. They might be mad that I pushed back, they might be mad internally that I made their ideological adelphoi look clueless, but they would get over it 5 minutes later. And most importantly, I was still nice and everybody nice to me and I maintained positive relationships with all. Any time I would check the mindless leftist slogans spewed by my coworkers, I would do so in a purely factual, not harsh, and not accusatory way. And since my conduct was otherwise friendly and unimpeachable it was hard for anybody to harbor grievance against me.
Keep in mind this was 2021, and this kind of scenario popped up often. There were moments where I pushed back against BLM (gasp), Pride Month (gasp), Wicca/Tarot witchcraft (gasp), Nonbinary BS (gasp). The thing is, these people cant really defend their sacred cows very well.
Their sacred cows have about as much validity and logic and truthfulness behind them as ancient idols of stone and bronze. They want to surround you in a mob yelling “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!!” (Acts). But their false idols are dead- and stupid, and false, and easily debunked.
My goal was never to make anybody look like buffoons, these were mostly decent people who I did genuinely care about as neighbors, coworkers, and friends. Its just that with a morsel of pushback they are easily exposed as being buffoons. It is not by my words they were condemned as fools but by their own. And most people start second guessing themselves when they realize they sound dumb.
Idk, there is a line that can be walked there. There is a way to defend our Faith and other values in a non-confrontational, but also non-conciliatory way. I think if you pray and ponder, as well as cultivating good relationships at work, you’ll figure out how to thread that needle. Be courageous, but not bullish. Dont be afraid to defend your faith. Also, actions speak louder than words. Youre very presence in these hostile spaces, if your light is really shining, serves to convict those around you.
That's a good question, and I choose to treat most of those as matters of personal conscience. I don't want to be prescriptive or impose a one size fits all model on people.
I always remember how the Pharisees attempted to trick Jesus, and he turned the tables by telling them to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's, and unto God what was His.
Here's another example of living and worshipping in the negative world. This man is an evangelical singer who performed outdoor concerts in defiance of covid lockdowns - all from religious conviction and raw courage.
My church has been getting involved in a ministry called LifeWise that teaches public school students Bible curriculum during school hours. It's been growing rapidly, and there's a lot of excitement about it, but I worry that as it draws more attention the ministry will be subject to either legal or cultural opposition, or else missional compromise.
Have you heard of Joseph Minich's Bulwarks of Unbelief? Minich is a Reformed scholar who studies the intellectual history of ideas and works in lesser known, smaller, yet more agile institutions (such as the Davenant Institute, which you might remember from having Alastair Roberts on a while ago) that allow a degree of intellectual freedom not always possible at larger, bureaucratized educational or religious institutions. The book is a high level treatment of the causes of unbelief, similar to Taylor's A Secular Age. It posits that the plausibility of Christianity (or theistic belief more generally) eroded with changes borne out of the industrial revolution, which first hit the lower classes in the early 1800's and then the middle classes in the mid 1900's. (I have a long review of Minich's book on my Substack and a much shorter one at Mere Orthodoxy, if you're interested.)
I think part of interacting with the "negative world" is coming to terms with the plausibility structures of the post-industrial world that tend to push us toward unbelief and make it the default posture among most modern people. You might be particularly interested in remarks about how ancient and medieval Christians tended to view the city as the place where God (via his order) was most present, which is diametrically opposed to some modern Christian views of the city as a place of evil.
Please post the link!
Here's the shorter review at Mere Orthodoxy:
https://mereorthodoxy.com/the-experience-of-unbelief
And here's the longer, more in depth review (definitely not for everyone):
https://ministeringingotham.substack.com/p/book-review-bulwarks-of-unbelief
Minich could be a good guest to have on.
Thanks! Will plan to give those a read.
Since I can't say it better than him, I'll just let the sublime Alan Jacobs say it for himself:
https://blog.ayjay.org/negative-worlds-all-the-way-down/
This is totally false: "Few of the Founding Fathers held anything remotely approximating orthodox Christian faith"
This quite misleading: "At the time of the Founding probably no more than 10% of Americans belonged to any church."
He's correct that professing Christianity is the status marker Renn is primarily talking about. And society has never perfectly aligned with the teachings of Christ. But to pretend there hasn't been a massive change in our lifetimes... is block headed, maybe even hard hearted.
Allow me to point out that Renn is doing social analysis, not theology proper. That means he isn't explaining how those who want to follow Christ will always suffer persecution. He's doing something much less common. He's making sense out of the massive societal changes happening. This is especially valuable in our day when so many are doing dumb theology that takes the ultimate answers provided in scripture as an excuse to skip all intermediate analysis and explanation. 'Christian truth is always resisted by society, therefore nothing has changed.'
There's really no excuse for this kind of thing. It's not as though scripture would lead someone to believe that all societies are equally resistant to Christianity. Something else makes this level of stubborn stupidity attractive.
Jacobs misses the mark so hard on this and in some ways undermines his own work at the same.
It would be great to hear a substantive response to the content. But I guess disappointment is what I deserve, having expectations of reasoned debate on social media. I should just ditch the app and go back to just reading these in my inbox.
You have received a substantive response now from virginia, and please see Aaron's point below it. Do you have any response?
I'll take a shot at a substantive response.
Jacobs seems to read Renn's article to argue that there were more "real Christians" in America at some time in the past than there are now, or that American society was "more Christian" in the past than it is now. Neither of those is Renn's thesis.
I would put Renn's thesis as follows: in the past, America's elites and the majority of its population viewed Christianity positively and aspired to be perceived as Christian, whether they really believed or not. By contrast, today, America's elites, and an ever-growing share of its population, view Christianity negatively, and aspire to distance themselves from any association with it.
Jacobs asks: "Does Renn seriously think that the slaves in the cotton fields singing their spirituals were living in a Christianity-positive world?"
Yes, I suspect he does. That's why those slaves were singing Christian spirituals instead of chanting Marxist slogans, like BLM protesters likely would today.
Again, Renn's point is not that the America of the past ago was "more Christian" or "had more Christians" than the America of today. The point is that even oppressed people back then generally viewed Christianity positively and invoked it as both a source of spiritual comfort and a prospective driver of social progress. Nowadays, by contrast, Americans (oppressed or not) are more likely to view Christianity as a source of oppression and an inhibitor of social progress.
Virginia, thanks. The various references people have made to slavery or Jim Crow are bizarre. Those people were clearly being oppressed for being black, not Christian. Their oppression would not have ended if they renounced their faith.
It's on my list to look at some of Jacobs' various writings on this point. I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Us Jews have lived in the negative world for >2000 years, and the last few weeks have shown that we still live in the negative world. I don't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of the evangelical landscape, but there are important lessons you may want to learn from smaller groups like us.
Some ideas to consider:
1. A more instrumentalist approach to the government, rather than an attempt to make the government impose your policy agenda on the population at large. Orthodox Jews in the US have done this in many ways where they live - support to educational institutions (grants for security, for science education, for meals, etc), allowing for religious accommodations in jobs, etc. Also lobbying both parties to secure favorable stances towards matters of critical importance - antisemitism, supporting Israel, etc.
2. A greater attempt at inward strengthening of communities to encourage trust within the community (which also makes young people think twice about leaving). This means turning away from the individualist homesteader-in-the-woods approach. A lot of American libertarian ideas are toxic to community building, which is of utmost importance in a negative world. Examples include babysitting/childcare sharing (for example, our small community uses whatsapps to coordinate babysitting across parents and teenagers), reaching out to those who are sick, communal charity, etc. It seems to my eye that many churches are good at this already, but it gets harder when everyone is dispersed over a wide geographic area.
3. A more deliberate approach to relocation. Orthodox Jews for example will not move places/take a job somewhere if there is not a community already established there. Here's an example I have shared before about how this is done: https://communities.ou.org/fair
4. A more deliberate approach to encouraging marriage to others who share similar values.
5. Emphasizing the positive/joyful aspects of your religion rather than bemoaning the decline of society. People who are tired of secular culture's emptiness will find you, but only if there is emotional resonance
6. Being resolute and unapologetic about your commitment - one of the comments below mentioned Daniel, who is an excellent example of how to retain your faith in exile. One of the advantages of our diverse society is that this is generally well received as long as others do not think you are imposing ideas on them.
7. Creating ownership - for us it is in schools, synagogues, etc. but also in the re-establishment of sovereignty in our land. Aaron has talked a lot about this. But when you are in exile, be prepared to move on
8. Education of youth - young, teens, young adults. My impression is that a lot of the current environment is shallow. I have met many adults who went to Catholic school and even send their own kids to Catholic school who cannot explain basic concepts to me - like what is Advent? Parents and pastors can have a lot more influence here than what they print in a textbook at school (which most kids do not read anyway).
9. Summer camp to build cultural and personal ties over dispersed communities. Camp is a huge (and expensive) part of American Jewish culture which creates lifelong ties
10. Creation of a social media substructure that encourages your faith, rather than a hopeless attempt to wall it off. Of course parental controls are important, but even more important is that your children will want to follow Christians online.
From my history lessons, there are a lot of things here that resemble early Christianity, which arose from Judaism and probably took many lessons from the Jewish diaspora of the ancient world.
This advice is pure gold.
I would add two quick points from my experience in Finland as a conservative Lutheran working in Christian ministries in eg. urban environment with students and with negative world-attuned colleagues and churches.
1) The converts will start coming. They already have and their amount will increase given the reasons they now come. Salient groups thus far among the young, roughly: disillusioned former New Atheist types, former New Agers. Not many yet, but clearly more than a decade ago. The stuff they got into was disappointing, to say the least.
2) Thrive in controversy, but do not look for it (ie. be real, don’t be a phony grifter). Taleb‘s antifragility is a thing that actually works when the gospel is clear and upfront. Have a bowl where you can direct and collect the attention (congregations, YouTube channels).
A case in point here would be the Mission Diocese whose bishop Juhana Pohjola is prosecuted alongside Päivi Räsänen for teaching the sixth commandment as some of you might know.
For 20 years now there has been controversy after another around the diocese. And exponential growth. Don’t shy away, be bold and the Lord will provide and be faithful.
With respect to Judaism, whether Orthodox or not, it can only survive in Western democracies. The totalitarian states of the 20th century were hostile to Judaism. Post 1945, and the creation of the state of Israel, the Arab nations ethically cleansed their states of any Jews, notwithstanding those communities had been there for centuries. There are insulated Christian communities like the Mennonites, but they can only exist in societies that practice tolerance. The current western societies are not tolerant, and therefore I predict that sooner or later, all faiths (except perhaps Islam) will either have to make their peace with the "woke" ideology or they will be persecuted out of existence. Christianity is just the first; the others will not be around much longer.
Judaism cannot only survive in western democracies. France is a Western democracy but things arent so great for Jews over there. Judaism can only survive in protestant, constitutional-democratic-republics, of which there is only 1 (and only for now).
Upstate NY: This is a great comment that is inspiring to read, and will provide me many insights as a Christian teacher and elder.
One question, though, to really address the shift to a negative society. How do we deal with public schools wanting to teach our third graders about anal sex, etc., without encountering the response that WE are trying to force our values on everyone else? I am responding to your point #1.
When I grew up, in public schools, I had many Jewish classmates. They attended Hebrew school at a certain age. They shared info with the rest of us in music class about Jewish holidays, the story of the Maccabees and the origin of Hanukkah, etc., that probably would not be permitted today. No one tried to indoctrinate them with homosexual propaganda.
What approach is taken today by Orthodox Jews? Do they send any children to public schools, or is it 100% private and home schooling? I sent my boys to private Christian school from K-12. Should I stop caring what goes on in public schools, even if I think it will eventually destroy our civilization?
Thank you. As a twenty something, I live in inner-city San Francisco. One of the most Godless, and God-hating places in America. It was just assumed practice at our church that we would live in Christian Communities is the city. Sure, some was because of the great expensive of living there, but a lot was about the mutual support that proximate community provided. During one period there were about 12 of us from our church that choose to live in the same apartment building in say 5 different units, mostly singles, men, women and some married couples. We had a church home group in the building. It was a safe place of support, discipleship and a mission field all in one.
Thanks for sharing. I think groups like Orthodox Jews have been very successful. How many lessons can be applied to the much larger and heterogeneous evangelical world is unclear, but it's an interesting model to study for sure.
That's all very nice...For you. Your coethnics have made certain that us white goyim will be broken on the rack of the state if we try and behave in such an insular fashion.
Just read this from Rabbi Sacks. Thanks for these comments. Yes I do think we have a lot to learn from Orthodox Jews, and Orthodox Christians in Muslim majority countries, too. Sacks though takes it further to encourage the multiculturalism and the dignity of difference rather than choosing the pathway of enforced uniformity. I share it here: https://www.rabbisacks.org/archive/what-is-anti-semitism-moment-magazine/
A view from England. I know that your view is that the American political and cultural tradition has all the resources needed to address contemporary problems. I suspect this is hubristic and that there are much bigger spiritual battles heating up that are beyond the capability of the American political and cultural tradition. 2 Thess 2 describes a "strong delusion" sent by God himself on those who "refuse to love the truth". This principle - if it is in play today - would portend something very serious for the American political and cultural tradition.
I think the situation in England is more stark. For almost 1500 years, for better or worse, the history of the British Isles has been shaped by Christianity. There has been an Alliance of one form or another between the church and the rulers of Britain since at least the time of the very first Archbishop of Canterbury in AD597. This evolving Alliance has, over the centuries, created a profound co-dependency between church and country, like two woodland vines twisting in and out of each other to the point where they can no longer be disentangled without uprooting both of them. But this is now changing – the uprooting has begun. Particularly since WW1 and WW2, the British state has been choosing a secular path which explicitly rejects this Alliance. The institutional church is not only losing influence in the corridors of power, it is also increasingly irrelevant to the population at large. But the institutional church remains deeply invested in the Alliance and, like a jilted lover, seeks to cling on to whatever influence and relevance remains. As the nation slides into secularism, so also must everything invested in the nation, including the institutional church. There are serious consequences. By embracing the lie of secular liberal democracy (the current British political and cultural tradition) and thereby rejecting the wisdom of God, Britain is adopting attitudes and courses of action that are increasingly unwise – the nation appears to be adrift from reality, and at times insanely so. This is God’s judgement: those who reject his divine wisdom are given over to an unsound mind to make their own choices and experience the harsh consequences of departing from divine wisdom. This judgment applies as much to the British church as it applies to Britain. The time is now to wake up to reality – the Alliance between church and state (in its British form) was always unholy and its inevitable termination, which is very painful, should be embraced rather than resisted. That wake-up means (i) dis-investing in the Unholy Alliance that has compromised the church for centuries and (ii) re-investing in true gospel allegiance to Jesus Christ, in the obedience of faith, in the expression of loyal love to our God and Saviour, trusting in him rather than relying on the power structures of this world and its wisdom (aka as its political and cultural tradition).
Thanks for this perspective.
History has shown the Protestant State Church to be, for whatever reason, the most wretched of all ecclesial forms. England is no exception here, just another example of an unbroken pattern. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were able to do the throne-and-altar thing and preserve authentic Catholicism or Orthodoxy (though some of the features of these traditions that we Protestants find objectionable are surely a product of this relationship), but my sense is that the European Protestant state churches have been like the 21st century US Mainline since at least the days of John Wesley.
Perhaps it's the lack of any sources of ecclesial authority outside a given nation-state, and the relatively low status accorded to tradition, that allows the state bureaucracy to totally subjugate the Protestant state church to its soulless value system.
You raise some important points, though I suggest your conclusions are awry.
The roots of our current problems (both in the UK and in the US) are to be found in the four fundamental errors of the patristic church. These errors have perpetuated down the centuries in different forms. The example you cite of "throne and altar" is good example of two of those patristic errors combined. As the patristic church embraced the power structures of its day, it turned away from the kingdom principles demonstrated by the Christ (eg Matt 4:8-10; Matt 20:25-26; Matt 20:16; Mark 10:31; 1Cor 1:27). "Throne and Altar" is like Christ making alliance with Herod! It is an absurd and horrific idea. It is utterly remarkable that it ever gained traction - and yet it did and continues to have traction with some. The UK versions of the patristic errors are a bit different to the "throne and altar" expressions in the countries of medieval Europe, but they are clearly discernible over time and in the present.
If you look behind the word "throne" to see the "rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6) then the horror of the patristic alliance with Constantine becomes all the more stark. This was an Unholy Alliance and it continued through Charlemagne and various other war criminals to the present day. It takes multifarious forms in many so-called "Christian" nations and in the US too.
This is relevant to Aaron's original post, because the four patristic errors manifest in the US too. The post-Christian culture he describes is the unravelling of this Unholy Alliance.
I don't believe I've heard of the four patristic errors. Is this your rubric, or someone else's?
I'm not sure if I fully agree with your position or not. I believe Christians should govern according to Christian values. I believe that tight state-church links are never good for the church in the long run. Though there is nothing wrong with a historically Christian nation trying to preserve its Christian character and history. I'd say it's better for a country to be culturally Christian than not; it's better to be in Positive World than Negative World.
When Aaron first posted his classification of positive, neutral and negative worlds, I was immediately fascinated by his observation. The fundamental question is "what is God up to and what does he expect of us in this time and place?" Turning to the Lord with that question has opened my eyes to scripture in new ways and it has also led me to re-evaluate the course of God's kingdom in history since the apostles.
There are specific differences for different countries, but the UK course has lessons for the US (and vice versa). The turning point from positive to negative is not recent - it has been going on for about 150 years. It is the acceleration in the past 20 that Aaron has focussed on. But the roots of this present predicament are much older - they are found in the patristic era - and the challenge to our assumptions and presumptions is surprisingly painful if we are to be found faithful. The four patristic errors I mentioned before are my attempt to identify root cause of our present problem set.
Modern Britian is established on Judaeo-Christian values (or perhaps, more accurately on Judaeo-patristic values) and even the secular post-Christian values that are now displacing them are still essentially based on those patristic values. The UK Government has defined basic British Values to be: democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance for those of different faiths and beliefs. The average British churchgoer sees no problems with the set of “British Values” published by the UK Government in 2014 because they recognise them as versions of christian values albeit secularised. A counterfactual Britain, uninfluenced by patristic Christianity, would exhibit the much more cruel and vicious vices of Greece and Rome. The Human Rights Act (1998) and the Equality Act (2010) could never have been conceived without the dominant influence of patristic Christianity – even though both these Acts give rise to fundamental desecrations of the notion of the Image of God and are being applied in a cruel, vicious and anti-christian manner (to the surprise and dismay of many British Christians). But how do the "British Values" of post-christian Britain ascribe glory to God? And if they don’t, how should British believers regard them? What if the whole concept of “values” is lawyer-led dead-letter codification that sucks the living faith out of Christianity (see 2Cor 3:6)? What if the approach whereby "values" guide organisations (including church) are just the expression of the empty philosophy of this age? What if these values become the markers of allegiance to the British state? What if the introduction of Basic British values marks the point at which the British state signals that biblical Spirit-led faith in Jesus Christ is a designated threat?
There is a lot to unpack - and it is quite simple, but very likely to shock.
I think Aaron's "positive world" vs "negative world" is very insightful, but it's not adequate. And building a response strategy on the basis of his classification is at risk of superficiality too.
I don’t know that the Orthodox are different. Most of their churches have been state churches as well. Current example: Russian Orthodox Church
To clarify my original point: the EO seem to better able do the state church thing while holding fast to their historic doctrine and principles. Perhaps this is in part because of the long history of the Byzantine Empire, EO is sort of weird when it *isn't* a state church. E.g., the weirdness of an Antiochian Orthodox Church filled with nothing but Anglo-American Southerners -- Antioch being a Muslim Turkish backwater.
But if you take the ROC, my understanding (and I'll take correction if someone knows this better) is that it didn't really compromise on doctrine under the USSR. It was suppressed and constrained, and it avoided criticizing the government, but it basically retained its historic doctrines despite living under a militant atheist government.
I have to think that if Romanov-era Christianity had been dominated by an official Protestant "Church of Russia", its leadership after 1917 would have been quickly filled with a bunch of John Shelby Spongs who more or less affirm atheism and explain that Jesus is just a metaphor for the proper application of Marxist-Leninist principles.
I agree that the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches managed to avoid changing their doctrine to accommodate the governments they got entangled with.
But did they give us an example of shaping societies in a Christian way over the long term? The Catholic countries of Europe and Latin America have low birth rates, corruption in government, etc. Italy, of all places, is the lowest in birth rate in all of Europe. Catholic Italy and Orthodox Greece are prime examples of corruption in government. My primary objection to the Catholic integralists is that the historical examples of Catholic integralism (e.g. France, Mexico) led to huge backlash against the Catholic Church and are now very weak, religiously.
I agree with most of this. My point is really just to remark on the historical problems with Protestant state churches rather than to advocate for being more like the RCC or EO.
I have a theory that Catholicism also does especially poorly in places where the Reformation gathered some momentum and was only defeated with great brutality. I.e. France and Bohemia/Czechia.
I haven’t spent much time in Europe but my sense is that European Protestantism is especially degenerate. Birth rates do not tell the whole story; I believe that Southern European Catholicism is not quite as degenerate as Northern European Protestantism.
What to blame besides state churches? Maybe a longer history of economic development is part of it. I also have a theory that some of the most pious Protestants left Europe, where perhaps they could have led revival movements, for America. A “piety drain”, as opposed to a brain drain.
Thanks for sharing your perspectives on Britain. I hope you all are able to find a path forward.
Yes, thank you Aaron.
I'm sure your eschatology must play an important role in how you suggest we live in the "Negative World" - I'd love to read your book.
May I ask what your eschatology is?
Regards,
John FK Mulder.
PS. I'm a South African, writing from that country.
I don't spend much time thinking about eschatology, to be quite honest. Although I would say I'm amil.
I think the Western/American church has gotten very comfortable being in the majority of the culture and has forgotten how to exist as the upstart in a hostile culture. I think we have many examples and principles to remember and draw on from both the Old and New Testaments between the parts of the exile and the early church experience but it seems like most of the church is either in complete denial that there is an issue or is in complete panic looking for political solutions which can perhaps delay things but probably can't solve them. Finding that balance will be tricky. A lot of the former types will probably forego shining a light on the world in order to become a mirror of it. But it is also true that some of the latter types seem to pick fights over molehills rather than the essentials. Tony Evans gave a great sermon a year or two ago about this issue from Daniel and on the fact that God is still in control even in a hostile secular culture, but that God didn't act until Daniel drew his "line in the sand" so to speak. Thing is, that line will probably be different for different churches and for individual Christians depending on their circumstances and work environments. I fear even among Christians that do know what time it is there will be a lot of time wasted over arguments about where the line should be drawn, rather than actually getting to the business of drawing them and helping people become resilient enough to stand by them.
I don't think churches are ready for what is coming, because I don't think pastors are ready for what is coming on the evangelism/church education front. We were mostly all educated in the positive or neutral world. It is hard to adapt. Here is an example: Someone comes to the church for the first time with no background in Christianity at all. None. No one off VBS as a kid, no friend who took them to church, nothing. No Bible in the home. Pastors are used to lots of different kinds of people, the atheist who might be more well read on certain subjects, the rebel who knows better, the one who just wandered away and stopped coming, those returning to the faith of their parents or grandparents, etc... but this experience of someone who has no Christian background, not even a Bible story, that will be a new experience for the church and for pastors and it will become more and more common.
Yes, this will be a huge challenge.
I've played competitive ultimate frisbee since 1987. In 1995, I came to know the Lord Jesus as my Savior. My life turned inside out and upside down and I am grateful for that -- I needed to be alive as I was dead in my sins. Since then my faith in Christ has not limited my ability to play ultimate or obtain roster spots. Except recently, I get the sense or impression that teams (same age bracket) no longer seek me out to be part of their roster for regional or national tournaments. It doesn't seem to be a matter of skill, experience or ability. And I do shower regularly. I wonder about the unspoken negative attitude toward Christian players that organizers and captains may have. My spiritual spidey sense give me the vibe that something has changed over the past few years -- teams are less welcoming to Christian players.
You should try recruiting an all Christian team and then emerge victorious in said tournaments. But also Im sorry about the prejudice you feel yourself to be facing, its so lame :/
I see the Christian Church as the primary way to heal the huge gender divide in our country. They need to be courageous, united and outspoken. To acknowledge the fact that the genders are equal but different. To celebrate their differences and the fact that the Lord made them complimentary.
Christian Churches must counter the negative treatment given boys & men in our society. Not discuss how they can be 'better' or 'good' men, but how to be proud of their masculinity. If your not sure what that would look like, just lift up boys & men the way we have lifted up girls & women for the last 30 years.
Do you think it's even a possibility? What are your thoughts about my supposition? Thank you
I agree that this is a key to do and there's an entire chapter in my book about it.
I look forward to reading your book. Thank you!
From Uganda Africa. I really agree with you. Boys need to be lifted as they have done to girls. I would be glad to learn more how we can do that
I believe that the three-worlds story applies to more than just Christianity. There are many values in our society that have gone from positive to neutral to negative. Patriotism. Achievement. Rigorous thinking. etc.
I agree - I think it's one aspect of a societal revolution.
IMHO, social media is the biggest factor. It allows a small minority to spread their message very quickly to large numbers of people. Another factor that can't be ignored is just the general degeneration of our society. As you have pointed out, any type of Christianity is actively discriminated against. The elites in our cultural industries and in (most of) our educational institutions are actively hostile at worst, or just ambivalent at best, to what used to be considered normal. I don't know what is happening in the US as I live in Canada, but up here every weekend thousands of protestors are supporting Palestine and chanting death threats against Jewish people. Individual Jewish businesses are being targeted and Jewish people are having their homes vandalized. This would have been unheard of a generation ago. I believe things are going to get worse before they get better, and I fear for the US when the next Presidential election takes place.
I live in very liberal Seattle, in the city proper. One has to be quite careful what one says in public. This fear of "being cancelled or shunned or labeled racist, homophobic, etc." is quite real. Even the Bible-teaching churches I visit pay heed to this secular ethic and are careful/often apologetic when talking about "those issues." Some are speaking Biblical truth, but bend over backwards to look at tolerant as they can and not be labelled as bigoted, racist or intolerant. To get ahead, remain respected in the community you need to "virtual signal" with "the right" answers. I choose to just not talk about "those issues" openingly, and when asking I generally sidestep the issues. Only with those I have vetted and trust do I talk opening about my traditional Christian values and worldview. I can't see any benefit in talking opening in my community at large. It will only lead to needless loss and/or an unhealthy martyr complex.
We have not been given a spirit of fear, brother.
And
Those who disavow me before other, so I will disavow them before my Father
I pray that you are courageous to live in the Truth. That which you are reticent to speak, you will be all the more reticent to live.
Mr. Renn, I found your work as I consider converting to Christianity. As part of the elite culture, my friends and family have no framework for appreciating or participating in my journey. They think I’m making an error; they believe that the authentic loving spirit of Christianity is upheld by the secularists. They see no generosity of spirit amid the self declared Christians. What counsel would you give me?
1 Corinthians 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:27
KJ21
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
That your friends/cohort think you are in error is to be expected. You, by God's grace, have been given eyes of faith. Others are still in a worldview and self-view of darkness and false reality.
Have compassion on them--"for they know not what they do" Luke 23:24. There are many perks to being in the "elite world" or "wealthy world" or "powerful world." But those relishing these realms of power/acclaim must adopt the rules of that group. We adopt the values of those whose approval we seek. There is specific "virtue signaling" and ideology and/or "group think" that is required of every group--even the thug gangs on the street. Christians are too caught in this maze of group cultural expectations/requirements and the fear of "cancelling" it elicits. Out of "christian culture" and subsequent "christian virtue signalling" come much of the "no generosity of spirit" your cohort rightly see. I was well trained as youth to "gay bash" and call women that had abortions-"murders", etc. This "virtual signaling" proved you were "in the club" and in time could be promoted in rank. I find it best to agree with Christianity critics where they are right, or even partially so and be humble about the arrogance (past and present) of myself and much of the church. I would say that true "Followers of Christ"--the term I prefer as "Christian" has no meaning anymore, need to be both prophetic and outspoken against the broken corrupt world and the broken and corrupt institutional church. Then our story may make sense to those on the outside. We can't bring them faith, but we can lower some of the obstacles.
Thank you, Rob, for the thoughtful reply. Helpful, indeed.
I wish you well on your faith journey. Hang around with those that truly love Jesus and see/experience Him working. For "faith is better caught than taught".
My circumstances are the same. Your choice must be to leave your friends and family behind and forge new ties based on your religious beliefs.
Just gradually slip away. They will not grant any credence to your religious point-of-view. Don’t waste your breath or your time. Your living example as a fulfilled practicing Christian will be the best argument. In this instance, what speaks loudest is what you DO, while refraining from saying much at all.
One by one, your friends and family will find over time that their hollow secular beliefs let them down and, at times, betray them outright. At that point, they MIGHT be open to hearing your perspective...but probably not.
We know the fundamental nature of our own kind, don’t we?
Thank you. To have no quarrel with anyone - and let my actions speak. May it be so.
Jonas, I don't fully understand what you are asking for here, but I'd be honored to speak with you about it. Please reach out to me at aaron@aaronrenn.com and we can set up a time to talk. Aaron.
I think my question would be at what point in the Negative World do you lean into going to jail, losing your job, etc.
Do/should people quit their jobs when their companies have a pride month event at work? What if they didn’t attend for years and it’s mandatory now? What if it’s mandatory to not only attend, but participate in a way where they couldn’t just hide in the corner and leave early?
At some point the Negative World may induce Christians to experience hardship for certain Christian doctrines, but not “Christianity” altogether (I love Jesus and I’m openly gay, etc.) What doctrines are worth jail/economic hardship?
I used to work at Target, in like 2021. I was a 22 year old white guy, very affable and amicable. This was in Eugene, OR, one of the most nihilist, vile, darkest, anti-American, and anti-Christian cities in the country. The simple fact was that since I was pretty well-liked by all of my coworkers (raging leftists tho they be), and I was also a guy who was observably and indisputably kind to all, it gave me a lot of latitude in truthfully expressing myself. Maybe Im gifted with tact, or maybe humor, idk- not saying everyone would have similar results.
But if a girl made flippant anti-american comments, I would be fully comfortable to push back in a way that was not overly combative, but which was also so succinct and correct that nobody listening could dispute the validity of my statement or the stupidity of hers. They might be mad that I pushed back, they might be mad internally that I made their ideological adelphoi look clueless, but they would get over it 5 minutes later. And most importantly, I was still nice and everybody nice to me and I maintained positive relationships with all. Any time I would check the mindless leftist slogans spewed by my coworkers, I would do so in a purely factual, not harsh, and not accusatory way. And since my conduct was otherwise friendly and unimpeachable it was hard for anybody to harbor grievance against me.
Keep in mind this was 2021, and this kind of scenario popped up often. There were moments where I pushed back against BLM (gasp), Pride Month (gasp), Wicca/Tarot witchcraft (gasp), Nonbinary BS (gasp). The thing is, these people cant really defend their sacred cows very well.
Their sacred cows have about as much validity and logic and truthfulness behind them as ancient idols of stone and bronze. They want to surround you in a mob yelling “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!!” (Acts). But their false idols are dead- and stupid, and false, and easily debunked.
My goal was never to make anybody look like buffoons, these were mostly decent people who I did genuinely care about as neighbors, coworkers, and friends. Its just that with a morsel of pushback they are easily exposed as being buffoons. It is not by my words they were condemned as fools but by their own. And most people start second guessing themselves when they realize they sound dumb.
Idk, there is a line that can be walked there. There is a way to defend our Faith and other values in a non-confrontational, but also non-conciliatory way. I think if you pray and ponder, as well as cultivating good relationships at work, you’ll figure out how to thread that needle. Be courageous, but not bullish. Dont be afraid to defend your faith. Also, actions speak louder than words. Youre very presence in these hostile spaces, if your light is really shining, serves to convict those around you.
That's a good question, and I choose to treat most of those as matters of personal conscience. I don't want to be prescriptive or impose a one size fits all model on people.
I always remember how the Pharisees attempted to trick Jesus, and he turned the tables by telling them to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's, and unto God what was His.
Great question(s)
https://www.superspreaderfilm.com/
Here's another example of living and worshipping in the negative world. This man is an evangelical singer who performed outdoor concerts in defiance of covid lockdowns - all from religious conviction and raw courage.