Dating apps have a bigger universe that make them more appealing than church mixers.
I think the larger issue is that women 40+ who’ve never married usually have issues. It could be girlfriends holding them back but it might be a fear of intimacy or the loss of autonomy.
Many women greatly exaggerate their attractiveness to men and some church leaders tell women what they want to hear rather than what they need to do to get a husband
I think all of the comments from the younger men are pretty on point—will tack on as a single millennial male living in a big city. Hope to be married within the next 3-5 years and looking. Suffice it to say it’s a jungle out there. The last chopper out of Nam analogies you see are apropos. The meet/meat market is a different game than it was even ten years ago, and only a certain number of observers, fewer within the conservative Christian sphere, have caught up.
This is my anecdotal experience, but unfortunately some of the worst dating behavior I’ve witnessed/experienced is from professing Christian girls—perhaps to a degree that honestly I haven’t seen from more secular/less religiously involved females (NB, gave up on missionary dating a while ago).
It could be chalked up to a number of factors (eg, just the general culture rubbing off); from my observation, your average, college educated young Christian female is getting multiple forces of push/pull (get a degree, be independent, but be close to family; be safe/moral, but have fun too; have a career, but want a family (but not too soon), and so on).
There’s probably something to be said for what, if anything, institutional churches are contributing, or not, to the above—but perhaps the best indicia is that your average church in 2025 isn’t necessarily institutional, which contributes to the general squishiness and dysregulation.
The men have their issues too, and I certainly can’t say I’ve been perfect, but one of the reasons I have been drawn to Aaron’s work is because he does a good job of countervailing the “men aren’t stepping up,” or men being behind the bad actors, when it is otherwise the low hanging fruit.
Christian men: Men are working twice as hard as our grandfathers for women half the quality of our grandmothers.
Christian women: Women want a good, Christian man - we get to choose two of those.
Collectively, no one wants to see their friends marry down - it isn't as though sabotage is leading one of the friends to swoop in on the newly single prospect. Also, a friend moving away (as in the stated case of miliary moves) once they marry, or even just when they marry, is a loss in the immediate sense, and no one wants to see their friend group diminish in value or resources.
I just got back from a week in central Kentucky, visiting my middle daughter's family, and I couldn't help thinking of them when reading the note about single Christian women being reluctant to disrupt their comfortable lives, in order to marry.
This daughter has always been particularly sensible and practical, to the point where I sometimes wondered if she would end up being a missionary's wife. So I somewhat console myself concerning the distance between us now by thinking of how much farther it might have been.
Kentucky is a lovely state, and her husband tempts me to move by mentioning things such as how much better the weather is for gardening there, than here in sweltering Houston (especially after our last two summers). And though well off the beaten path, the town where they live has a great deal of history – indeed Kentucky as a whole has played an incredible part in American history, and especially in Church history.
Consequently, the area is hardly a backwater, and indeed a lovely place to raise a family. It's just so far from Texas: either a 16+ hour drive that seems considerably longer, or a far quicker flight into Louisville, to which I am rapidly becoming addicted.
While I sympathize with these young ladies' concerns about their lives getting upended by marriage, I think they're being short-sighted. YES, like a lot of things, there will be negatives, BUT the positives are oh, so worth it. Two of my first four grandchildren have come from this marriage, they are lovely girls, and by following her husband back to Kentucky (he was very clear about intending to eventually move back), they were able to purchase a great home at a price they could more than afford, meaning they are well on the way to getting out of debt.
Moral of the story? I would encourage young people - women and men - to strive to become mature, responsible followers of Christ, not wasting their young adult years on nonsense. But once they are mature and with their life on track, don't hesitate to marry when the right person comes along. Don't rush or make foolish, hasty choices, but know that marriage is a good thing!
I haven't even gotten that far with women in the Millennial cohort (as a younger Millennial myself), but my impression is the same as that of the first writer. The older girls have practiced independence for 5,10,15 years and now are incapable of coming back under the submission of a male authority. It is a microcosm of what happened in WWII when the women went into the labor force and then found that they enjoyed having their own money and didn't want to return home. Sending girls away to college or to move to a different town or state is the worst thing fathers can do, because it UNIQUELY among all sociological factors (due to the fact that it still impacts virgins, and so we are not talking about inability to pair bond due to fornication) prevents women from being able to humble themselves in submission to a man. They create their own mission and do not want to stop what they are doing to begin supporting what a man is doing. It is disordered. She is acting like a man, and looking for a man to support her mission, instead of having worked to prepare herself to support a man's mission. I have previously extended overtures to women between 28-36 and have given up on them, because they are too prideful to be worth the effort. The younger women are less apt to see you as beneath them due to pride from personal career success or the attention of other attractive/successful men, and due to having spent less time developing habits that interfere with domesticity, are better able to actually follow you. So I am looking past the Millennial women to Gen Z now.
I feel for all of the Christian men and non-Christian men struggling to find a wife. Here is my recommendation from a 70-year-old who has been happily married 44 years with three daughters - two of which are married with their own children and the last one in a serious relationship that will hopefully lead to marriage.
Go to a older married Christian couple whom you trust and respect (if your own parents don't fit the bill) and ask them to help you find a wife. This may sound very old-fashioned, but I know from my own experience many older married Christian couple know single Christian women who are looking for marriage and family.
Not only ask them to help you find a spouse but ask them to disciple you in preparing for marriage. From what I am reading on this site is you are on your own - or looking to some internet influencer for help. You are not on your own - and internet influencers are looking for clicks and subscribers.
Your suggestion greatly assumes that older married people as a group genuinely care about helping single Christians find spouses and form families.
I would suggest that church communities take on the collective burden of starting a personal classifieds page where local Christian singles can identify themselves as looking for a spouse and/or also looking for marriage-related counsel from older married couples. Or communities can just have a old school bulletin board where men and women can post their personals ads.
I'm not assuming anything. There are older, mature married Christian couples who don't care, but there are those - like my wife and I and others I know - that do care and have and would be willing to do assist in the future. Those men looking for a wife should seek them out - and vice a versa.
I have no objection to your suggestion, but what is needed is a more personal, human to human approach rather than another social media-driven approach.
How is a busy single man with many work obligations supposed to find these older married couples who want to help him find a wife?
A practical roadmap could be helpful to accompany your suggestion. Perhaps older married couples could advertise their matchmaking help and marriage counsel in the local church newsletter?
Well my assumption is that the Christian men are going to church so that’s where they would find them. For the larger churches a notice in the bulletin could help.
But this is a matter of priorities. If the single man is really wanting to find a wife then instead of wasting his time searching the internet, bars, small groups to refocus his efforts on finding a married couple to assist him. And again, married couples should be looking within their church (and elsewhere such as their work, civic and church groups) for these men and women to assist. There used to be in Jewish communities (not sure if they exist today) matchmakers.
My main point is that there is help out there and they don’t need to go it alone which is what I have seen from these blogs and articles.
Statistics show this. Divorced friends or family (or coworkers) are the single highest % impact on divorce risk beyond only one partner being a smoker or drug addicted, or a navy seal. Nothing else compares.
My take is that the man initially did well with the single lady because she was excited about a new relationship but over time she soured on him as his negatives became more apparent. The woman was looking for an excuse to break up with him, and her single friends helpfully obliged. My wife thinks that there may be something to the crab bucket theory, but I think that it could simply be that her friends wanted to provide support as they sensed she was feeling ambivalent. However, the married women knew that every man has negatives, so rejecting a man for having negatives may not be a good idea. If a man is so attractive that he appears to have few negatives to a particular woman, that man could probably find someone more attractive than the particular woman. It is a mistake for a woman to expect that her husband would have few negatives -- if that were the case, he would be out of her league. Married women were willing to compromise in order to get married, but the single friends were not willing to compromise and thus remain unmarried. That's a fine choice to make, but a single woman needs to be mature enough to recognize that is what she is doing.
"married women knew that every man has negatives, so rejecting a man for having negatives may not be a good idea."
Yes, this is likely the crux of the matter. It's impossible to know for sure if this guy's negatives are so severe that four women have all rejected him for some flaw. It's possible, but do these four separate women all have the same deal-killer?
Having read studies about dating apps, for example that women routinely set a requirement for a minimum height of 6 feet - which is ludicrous - I'm more inclined to think, as ridiculous as it sounds, that these 30-something women are at least a bit deluded in their expectations.
The secret married women know, that a girl's single pals don't, is that all young men have LOTS of flaws (and if you don't see many, they're hiding them), but decent men improve a great deal, over time, in a marriage. That doesn't mean they will fundamentally change, and a woman should never marry a man exhibiting one of their deal-killers, expecting to change him, but it does mean they shouldn't turn minor things into deal-killers.
I have heard, I think from Rob Henderson, that women tend to be higher in neuroticism than men. That is true of the women I know, including myself. I don't think I'm high on the scale of neuroticism compared with other women, but even so, my husband has a huge impact tempering my tendency to worry and act out of fear. I wonder if the longer a woman is living on her own or mainly with other women the higher in neuroticism she becomes?
If I'm right, it might help to try to find a woman with a close relationship with her dad and/ or brother and when she's doubting ask her to get his opinion?
Side note: I've also noticed that older, single women tend towards being hypochondriac.
I've also wondered if we in the church need to start free Christian matchmaking services as this seems to be an area where many are struggling. However, I'm not sure what would be the ideal format.
Yes, it seems like the Church really needs to do more to help people marry, but I suspect in practice it is fraught with complications.
Pastor Steve Schlissel, who sadly passed last month, and his wife Jeanne did actually set up a Christian matchmaking service in New York, modeled after the Jewish practice. I got their Messiah's NYC newsletters back in those days, and they were very hopeful, but I don't know if it really worked out well or not.
I would definitely want to learn as much from others' success and failures as possible, before venturing into that. But might there be some simpler things we could do, like setting up an opt-in directory or something??
Women don't know how to behave with men anymore, because their fathers did not raise them right, so they are afraid, and that leads them to making power moves of a) excluding men and b) demanding men supplicate to them to prove that they are not dangerous to them. Any man who does that is not masculine and becomes less attractive to them. It is a Catch-22, where women without good/strong male presence in their lives become neurotically fearful of men and seek indirect avenues of reassurance that men will be safe (like petitioning the government to oppress men, or grant themselves greater privileges, or ostracizing men through social manipulation like status games, partner shaming, and this silliness with bears).
I’d happily start a matchmaking service if Americans were open to receiving help. Most people in large American cities do NOT want and do NOT offer help.
It can be a little like looking for a job. Network, network, network. Talk to your friends--who's hiring, or who knows a nice, single lady? Ideally, getting a job referral or getting fixed up with someone by a mutual friend can be the best way. Alternatively, looking at classified ads or dating apps is a numbers game. Looking at lots of openings or meeting many people, most of them are not good matches, but eventually (especially if you keep a positive attitude and make it fun), you may find a great-match job or relationship.
I don’t agree because at least with a job there’s at least clear alignment on who is a good candidate. Hiring can be color-blind and merit-based. Dating is neither color-blind nor merit-based.
Granted, job-seeking is not perfectly analogous to mate-seeking. There are some similarities. In both, if one can relax and learn to enjoy the process, it takes a lot of the pressure off, and improves the odds of success.
I have tried to 'help' some Christian single ladies but they are pretty picky and not open to changing themselves so it really didn't work. It's hard to know what would actually be helpful to people. To some extent I think has to be an in-person, numbers game. I worry for my kids, nephew, nieces. But my husband says they'll be fine. Stop worrying. LOL
Marriage is hard but good and demographics is destiny -so I really pray we, the church can figure out a better way of helping people.
Best thing I can offer as advice from a Millennial man is do not let your girls go to college or move out from home. If you can keep them from working a 9-5 even better. There are so many other things she could do that can generate income or educate her mind and none of them require the standard model that has been pushed on us.
Thank you! This explains my experience of ‘helping’ people with social introductions and then running into the reality that many Christian singles are not open to changing their romance and marriage expectations to fit reality.
I'm a Christian man in my late 20's actively looking for a wife. This week's digest and last week's digest articulate a number of the reasons why I'm not looking in the church to find a wife, and why I've used dating apps instead.
A couple years ago, I attended a worship event for young Christian professionals (20's and 30's) in my area. It was put on by a handful of nondenominational evangelical churches in and around my suburb. Most of those attending were single and ostensibly open to a relationship.
Despite all this, I was blown away by the relationship-negative messaging at the event. Multiple times during the service, both in the message and *during the worship*, sentiments like "if you're not absolutely completely positive that your relationship (E: is) honoring to God, you should break up" were expressed. While obviously that sentiment is true when interpreted strictly, young people (particularly young women) in a smoke-and-lights worship setting will inevitably interpret this is as a struggle session encouraging a breakup.
The alternative these people present to having a fun, loving, productive relationship is to ensure congregants are living the "holiest" lives they can. The practical ramifications of this ridiculous, Quakerish sentiment are indulging in meaningless self-flagellation, constant reconfiguration of the emotions, and accomplishing nothing tangible with your life -- this is framed as "holiness." (I believe TLP calls this narcissism.)
Between this event and other negative experiences I've had dating in the church, including some similar to what your reader has expressed, I've stopped pursuing women at church. The revealed preference is that this isn't something people want out of church anymore, nor is it something church leaders care to encourage. In fact, churches deploying rhetoric like the above actively take pride in breaking up relationships, not in building them. There's exceptions of course -- my brother is engaged to a girl he met at his church, but the culture there actively encourages and supports marriage, especially among young people.
Dating apps have treated me far better. I've enjoyed nearly every experience I've had, and I've learned something from each of them.
I went to visit a Shaker community last weekend. Well, guess what - there weren't many people around!! 😁
I know, bad joke, and it was the middle of winter, with few tourists. Still, things like what you describe are making me start to wonder if the American church is turning functionally Shaker. There's a whole genre of books about Christian singleness, and every time I read about another one, I just think, "Why can't we just admit in the church that marriage is good and almost everyone should get married?!!!"
Churches should be full of noisy kids running around, not only old people, as in communist countries.
There's always been Quakerish threads of the American church and of Protestantism historically, going back to the radical Anabaptists post-Reformation. Any thread that emphasizes vibes or the inner light over doctrine falls into this category. It's not a coincidence that these threads are all dominated by women in practice, even when men hold the titles of power and a particularly charismatic man leads the movement. Women excel at navigating social chaos and manipulating men to do their bidding, and the lack of process surrounding actions as drastic as getting read out of meeting lends itself very well to that power. There's similarities in all the various enthusiastic, emotional offshoots -- all the Great Awakenings, Methodism, Pentecostalism, and much of YRR and modern nondenominational evangelicalism. (E: A fantastic case study on this is the Oneida cult, formed in upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening.)
John Adams, the Founding Father, wrote in his autobiography about John Dickinson, the Quaker delegate from Delaware. Even though Dickinson held the title of delegate and was obviously well-respected in his community and his colony/state, Adams noted that he was longhoused by his Quaker wife and his mother into resisting the Revolution because they were terrified at its prospect of destroying his fortune. (https://www.masshist.org/publications/adams-papers/index.php/view/ADMS-01-03-02-0016-0024#sn=36)
Anthony Bradley wrote a great article on Mere Orthodoxy a few years back describing a similar state of affairs in modern evangelicalism. Even though men hold the titles, every effort of the church is spent providing comfort and validation for women rather than actually getting things done, to the detriment of everyone -- women themselves included. (https://mereorthodoxy.com/evangelicals-matrilineal)
"Dating apps have treated me better." Bro must be in the 98th+ percentile. I'm a measly ol' 70-80th percentile of attractiveness, and even though that means you have to talk to 8 other guys before you find one better looking, statistically that means 1-4 matches in 400-1000 swipes on a dating app. For most of us, they are useless. Unless you mean that you used eharmony or match. My impression is that if women have to put up money, then they are more likely to take it seriously and not use it as an ego boost. Having some investment in the outcome might generate better results.
Yeah the accusation here is true. I'm a tall, pretty built white guy with a good career. So apps work for me. But I'm not trying to give advice. My point isn't that you, the person reading this, should use dating apps. My point is that an awful lot of churches don't really care about fostering marriage -- indeed, that they invest more effort into breaking relationships up than they do in putting them together. When boomers or online "trad" influencers tell young men to get off the apps and find a nice church girl, they're not being serious and should largely be disregarded.
That may be the case for many, and I don't know how to tell who's giving sincere advice. But my honest advice as a Millennial is that most men should get off free apps because there's something inherent in in person meeting that vastly improves the likelihood of success (as Christians, not playboys, would define it). The deficiencies of the method (online free apps) are overcome/negated if one is of such high market value that women do not hide or hedge their interest. Makes it easier to meet them but probably no improvement in identifying women of quality. May even be harder in some ways, so I'm neither envious nor bragging. We have different problems due to our different positions. Most are still the same.
TLDR most men should still get off the apps, but we can't just hope a good church girl drops from the sky. Seems like meeting them outside of church is likely to be necessary, due to the psychology involved (if she likes you but you don't make a move, you get placed in the not-people-zone because she deems you insecure and undecisive even though you were just uninterested)
This tracks with some of my own experience, especially when I was a young man. I received some messaging like this and I have OCD/Scrupulosity. Not exactly a formula for relationship success. I wish someone had said the things you said here about the stupidity of this way of thinking to me when I was in my 20s.
I've found that single-sex lonely hearts clubs (of either sex) tend to talk a lot of trash about the opposite sex. Even when I'm at the table with a bunch of single ladies!
Sorry, it's not very winsome.
The unsuccessful hate the successful in almost every realm.
Side note: For some reason, this reminded me of this old trick. If your significant other has a friend (of their same sex, assuming you're in a hetero relationship) you find annoying or otherwise dislike being around, make some casual comments to your SO about how good looking/well-dressed/charming they are. Make them as naturally as possible (e.g., "so-and-so looked so nice tonight" and don't overstate the case (that is, don't compliment their personality if you've previously complained about it). The friend will soon be excluded from your orbit.
I would suggest to your reader-correspondent that he focus his search for a wife on women in their 20s, rather than the 31-34-year-olds who have treated him this way.
Actions speak louder than words. Whatever she may tell suitors - and whatever she may tell herself - the fact that a woman is 31+ years old and still single (not even engaged) belies her claims to want marriage and a family. I'm sure there are the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule, but I've never met one in the flesh.
Absolutely true. I was not too picky to consider women within 5 years of my age but after having given them many chances, their pridefulness got to be too much and I just find that the younger women are more pleasant and interested. I will go where I'm wanted. There's going to be a lot of unmarried Millennial girls because the men of their age cohort are looking at women 10-20 years younger. I wouldn't prefer much younger women if I had my way, but I'm forced to open my mind to it before I get too old.
**real challenges of a relationship with a military officer living overseas**
I understand this Christian man's frustration in his search for a wife, but I think the solution is within reach and doesn't relate to the supposed flaws of a single woman's friend group. While dating can be especially challenging for servicemen, there are practical ways to find a wife.
For Christian military men seeking a wife, I'd suggest focusing on two promising paths: First, consider connecting with Christian women in the communities/countries where you're currently stationed. Many local Christian women (if there are any in say Germany) might be drawn to the idea of marriage to an American serviceman. Second, working with a Christian matchmaker (if you find a good one...any recommendations from the newsletter community?) could help you find women who are specifically open to and excited about being a military wife.
I deeply appreciate the sacrifices our servicemen make for our country. The frequent moves and uncertainty of military life ask a lot not just of them, but of their wives too. While it's understandable that some women feel hesitant about leaving behind their established lives, there are definitely adventurous, faith-filled women who would welcome building a life together within the military community.
For men who are in military service and are looking for wives, it's worth taking the time to find a wife who shares your vision for life on a practical level. The right woman is out there – someone who sees relocating not as leaving things behind, but as an opportunity to build something meaningful together.
I met my wife 38 years ago through a personal ad (after meeting many ladies that way). Online dating services are the modern equivalent of personal ads in the old days. While there are all kinds of people participating (including dishonest), you may be able to find a good match. My son met his wonderful wife though a secular dating app. He specified one key word he was looking for: "Christian".
A tendency in human nature: people want what they cannot have (reverse psychology). I speculate that the male writer may have acted too interested too soon, causing the lady to not find him attractive enough. Had he perhaps kept her a little more at arm's length, and made her work harder for his attention, she might have yearned more for him (regardless of her friends).
I agree that playing games is not good, but unfortunately, restraining your enthusiasm is sometimes necessary to gain respect. It's just a fact of life. Throwing yourself at someone with more enthusiasm than the other currently feels is often a turnoff. I learned this the hard way as a nerdy engineer, during 10 years of seeking a wife, that the ladies I acted too interested in, lost interest in me. Eventually, after meeting many, many ladies, God brought the right match into my life, and she proposed to me on our third date. I was *shocked*, and said, whoa, slow down, we barely know each other. After 5 months, she was crying one evening. Why? "You won't marry me! (sob)". I sighed, yes I guess it's the right time finally, and I proposed. We've been happily married 37 years. But I had to learn a little "street smarts" about not throwing myself at people, like I had in my earlier years.
I would agree that it's not a matter necessarily of playing games. As an enthusiastic sort of person (and an engineer) myself, I had to learn to not display too much of that too soon, else salesmen and other folks would try to rip me off. It's a common misperception to think that because someone appreciates the positives, they're blind to the negatives.
Dating apps have a bigger universe that make them more appealing than church mixers.
I think the larger issue is that women 40+ who’ve never married usually have issues. It could be girlfriends holding them back but it might be a fear of intimacy or the loss of autonomy.
Many women greatly exaggerate their attractiveness to men and some church leaders tell women what they want to hear rather than what they need to do to get a husband
I think all of the comments from the younger men are pretty on point—will tack on as a single millennial male living in a big city. Hope to be married within the next 3-5 years and looking. Suffice it to say it’s a jungle out there. The last chopper out of Nam analogies you see are apropos. The meet/meat market is a different game than it was even ten years ago, and only a certain number of observers, fewer within the conservative Christian sphere, have caught up.
This is my anecdotal experience, but unfortunately some of the worst dating behavior I’ve witnessed/experienced is from professing Christian girls—perhaps to a degree that honestly I haven’t seen from more secular/less religiously involved females (NB, gave up on missionary dating a while ago).
It could be chalked up to a number of factors (eg, just the general culture rubbing off); from my observation, your average, college educated young Christian female is getting multiple forces of push/pull (get a degree, be independent, but be close to family; be safe/moral, but have fun too; have a career, but want a family (but not too soon), and so on).
There’s probably something to be said for what, if anything, institutional churches are contributing, or not, to the above—but perhaps the best indicia is that your average church in 2025 isn’t necessarily institutional, which contributes to the general squishiness and dysregulation.
The men have their issues too, and I certainly can’t say I’ve been perfect, but one of the reasons I have been drawn to Aaron’s work is because he does a good job of countervailing the “men aren’t stepping up,” or men being behind the bad actors, when it is otherwise the low hanging fruit.
I think you mean antinomies, not antimonies.
Christian men: Men are working twice as hard as our grandfathers for women half the quality of our grandmothers.
Christian women: Women want a good, Christian man - we get to choose two of those.
Collectively, no one wants to see their friends marry down - it isn't as though sabotage is leading one of the friends to swoop in on the newly single prospect. Also, a friend moving away (as in the stated case of miliary moves) once they marry, or even just when they marry, is a loss in the immediate sense, and no one wants to see their friend group diminish in value or resources.
I just got back from a week in central Kentucky, visiting my middle daughter's family, and I couldn't help thinking of them when reading the note about single Christian women being reluctant to disrupt their comfortable lives, in order to marry.
This daughter has always been particularly sensible and practical, to the point where I sometimes wondered if she would end up being a missionary's wife. So I somewhat console myself concerning the distance between us now by thinking of how much farther it might have been.
Kentucky is a lovely state, and her husband tempts me to move by mentioning things such as how much better the weather is for gardening there, than here in sweltering Houston (especially after our last two summers). And though well off the beaten path, the town where they live has a great deal of history – indeed Kentucky as a whole has played an incredible part in American history, and especially in Church history.
Consequently, the area is hardly a backwater, and indeed a lovely place to raise a family. It's just so far from Texas: either a 16+ hour drive that seems considerably longer, or a far quicker flight into Louisville, to which I am rapidly becoming addicted.
While I sympathize with these young ladies' concerns about their lives getting upended by marriage, I think they're being short-sighted. YES, like a lot of things, there will be negatives, BUT the positives are oh, so worth it. Two of my first four grandchildren have come from this marriage, they are lovely girls, and by following her husband back to Kentucky (he was very clear about intending to eventually move back), they were able to purchase a great home at a price they could more than afford, meaning they are well on the way to getting out of debt.
Moral of the story? I would encourage young people - women and men - to strive to become mature, responsible followers of Christ, not wasting their young adult years on nonsense. But once they are mature and with their life on track, don't hesitate to marry when the right person comes along. Don't rush or make foolish, hasty choices, but know that marriage is a good thing!
I haven't even gotten that far with women in the Millennial cohort (as a younger Millennial myself), but my impression is the same as that of the first writer. The older girls have practiced independence for 5,10,15 years and now are incapable of coming back under the submission of a male authority. It is a microcosm of what happened in WWII when the women went into the labor force and then found that they enjoyed having their own money and didn't want to return home. Sending girls away to college or to move to a different town or state is the worst thing fathers can do, because it UNIQUELY among all sociological factors (due to the fact that it still impacts virgins, and so we are not talking about inability to pair bond due to fornication) prevents women from being able to humble themselves in submission to a man. They create their own mission and do not want to stop what they are doing to begin supporting what a man is doing. It is disordered. She is acting like a man, and looking for a man to support her mission, instead of having worked to prepare herself to support a man's mission. I have previously extended overtures to women between 28-36 and have given up on them, because they are too prideful to be worth the effort. The younger women are less apt to see you as beneath them due to pride from personal career success or the attention of other attractive/successful men, and due to having spent less time developing habits that interfere with domesticity, are better able to actually follow you. So I am looking past the Millennial women to Gen Z now.
I feel for all of the Christian men and non-Christian men struggling to find a wife. Here is my recommendation from a 70-year-old who has been happily married 44 years with three daughters - two of which are married with their own children and the last one in a serious relationship that will hopefully lead to marriage.
Go to a older married Christian couple whom you trust and respect (if your own parents don't fit the bill) and ask them to help you find a wife. This may sound very old-fashioned, but I know from my own experience many older married Christian couple know single Christian women who are looking for marriage and family.
Not only ask them to help you find a spouse but ask them to disciple you in preparing for marriage. From what I am reading on this site is you are on your own - or looking to some internet influencer for help. You are not on your own - and internet influencers are looking for clicks and subscribers.
I've taken your advice and I hope that I've found myself in a good place where the older/already married folks are willing and able to assist me.
I will pray for God to bless your endeavors.
Your suggestion greatly assumes that older married people as a group genuinely care about helping single Christians find spouses and form families.
I would suggest that church communities take on the collective burden of starting a personal classifieds page where local Christian singles can identify themselves as looking for a spouse and/or also looking for marriage-related counsel from older married couples. Or communities can just have a old school bulletin board where men and women can post their personals ads.
See this example from Redeemer NYC, it could be adapted to a personals ad page - https://www.redeemer.com/classifieds
Another example from hipster Williamsburg, Brooklyn - https://www.bkreader.com/featured-news/heartbreak-in-brooklyn-as-viral-love-wall-ends-amid-dispute-9532915
I'm not assuming anything. There are older, mature married Christian couples who don't care, but there are those - like my wife and I and others I know - that do care and have and would be willing to do assist in the future. Those men looking for a wife should seek them out - and vice a versa.
I have no objection to your suggestion, but what is needed is a more personal, human to human approach rather than another social media-driven approach.
How is a busy single man with many work obligations supposed to find these older married couples who want to help him find a wife?
A practical roadmap could be helpful to accompany your suggestion. Perhaps older married couples could advertise their matchmaking help and marriage counsel in the local church newsletter?
Well my assumption is that the Christian men are going to church so that’s where they would find them. For the larger churches a notice in the bulletin could help.
But this is a matter of priorities. If the single man is really wanting to find a wife then instead of wasting his time searching the internet, bars, small groups to refocus his efforts on finding a married couple to assist him. And again, married couples should be looking within their church (and elsewhere such as their work, civic and church groups) for these men and women to assist. There used to be in Jewish communities (not sure if they exist today) matchmakers.
My main point is that there is help out there and they don’t need to go it alone which is what I have seen from these blogs and articles.
Keep your women away from divorced wives. They get in their heads and unsettle them.
Statistics show this. Divorced friends or family (or coworkers) are the single highest % impact on divorce risk beyond only one partner being a smoker or drug addicted, or a navy seal. Nothing else compares.
My take is that the man initially did well with the single lady because she was excited about a new relationship but over time she soured on him as his negatives became more apparent. The woman was looking for an excuse to break up with him, and her single friends helpfully obliged. My wife thinks that there may be something to the crab bucket theory, but I think that it could simply be that her friends wanted to provide support as they sensed she was feeling ambivalent. However, the married women knew that every man has negatives, so rejecting a man for having negatives may not be a good idea. If a man is so attractive that he appears to have few negatives to a particular woman, that man could probably find someone more attractive than the particular woman. It is a mistake for a woman to expect that her husband would have few negatives -- if that were the case, he would be out of her league. Married women were willing to compromise in order to get married, but the single friends were not willing to compromise and thus remain unmarried. That's a fine choice to make, but a single woman needs to be mature enough to recognize that is what she is doing.
"married women knew that every man has negatives, so rejecting a man for having negatives may not be a good idea."
Yes, this is likely the crux of the matter. It's impossible to know for sure if this guy's negatives are so severe that four women have all rejected him for some flaw. It's possible, but do these four separate women all have the same deal-killer?
Having read studies about dating apps, for example that women routinely set a requirement for a minimum height of 6 feet - which is ludicrous - I'm more inclined to think, as ridiculous as it sounds, that these 30-something women are at least a bit deluded in their expectations.
The secret married women know, that a girl's single pals don't, is that all young men have LOTS of flaws (and if you don't see many, they're hiding them), but decent men improve a great deal, over time, in a marriage. That doesn't mean they will fundamentally change, and a woman should never marry a man exhibiting one of their deal-killers, expecting to change him, but it does mean they shouldn't turn minor things into deal-killers.
I have heard, I think from Rob Henderson, that women tend to be higher in neuroticism than men. That is true of the women I know, including myself. I don't think I'm high on the scale of neuroticism compared with other women, but even so, my husband has a huge impact tempering my tendency to worry and act out of fear. I wonder if the longer a woman is living on her own or mainly with other women the higher in neuroticism she becomes?
If I'm right, it might help to try to find a woman with a close relationship with her dad and/ or brother and when she's doubting ask her to get his opinion?
Side note: I've also noticed that older, single women tend towards being hypochondriac.
I've also wondered if we in the church need to start free Christian matchmaking services as this seems to be an area where many are struggling. However, I'm not sure what would be the ideal format.
Yes, it seems like the Church really needs to do more to help people marry, but I suspect in practice it is fraught with complications.
Pastor Steve Schlissel, who sadly passed last month, and his wife Jeanne did actually set up a Christian matchmaking service in New York, modeled after the Jewish practice. I got their Messiah's NYC newsletters back in those days, and they were very hopeful, but I don't know if it really worked out well or not.
I would definitely want to learn as much from others' success and failures as possible, before venturing into that. But might there be some simpler things we could do, like setting up an opt-in directory or something??
"I wonder if the longer a woman is living on her own or mainly with other women the higher in neuroticism she becomes?"
Yes. That is what the Bear fad was about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSVXbgR4JFs
Women don't know how to behave with men anymore, because their fathers did not raise them right, so they are afraid, and that leads them to making power moves of a) excluding men and b) demanding men supplicate to them to prove that they are not dangerous to them. Any man who does that is not masculine and becomes less attractive to them. It is a Catch-22, where women without good/strong male presence in their lives become neurotically fearful of men and seek indirect avenues of reassurance that men will be safe (like petitioning the government to oppress men, or grant themselves greater privileges, or ostracizing men through social manipulation like status games, partner shaming, and this silliness with bears).
I’d happily start a matchmaking service if Americans were open to receiving help. Most people in large American cities do NOT want and do NOT offer help.
“You’re on your own, kid” is the governing ethos.
It can be a little like looking for a job. Network, network, network. Talk to your friends--who's hiring, or who knows a nice, single lady? Ideally, getting a job referral or getting fixed up with someone by a mutual friend can be the best way. Alternatively, looking at classified ads or dating apps is a numbers game. Looking at lots of openings or meeting many people, most of them are not good matches, but eventually (especially if you keep a positive attitude and make it fun), you may find a great-match job or relationship.
I don’t agree because at least with a job there’s at least clear alignment on who is a good candidate. Hiring can be color-blind and merit-based. Dating is neither color-blind nor merit-based.
Granted, job-seeking is not perfectly analogous to mate-seeking. There are some similarities. In both, if one can relax and learn to enjoy the process, it takes a lot of the pressure off, and improves the odds of success.
I have tried to 'help' some Christian single ladies but they are pretty picky and not open to changing themselves so it really didn't work. It's hard to know what would actually be helpful to people. To some extent I think has to be an in-person, numbers game. I worry for my kids, nephew, nieces. But my husband says they'll be fine. Stop worrying. LOL
Marriage is hard but good and demographics is destiny -so I really pray we, the church can figure out a better way of helping people.
Best thing I can offer as advice from a Millennial man is do not let your girls go to college or move out from home. If you can keep them from working a 9-5 even better. There are so many other things she could do that can generate income or educate her mind and none of them require the standard model that has been pushed on us.
Thank you! This explains my experience of ‘helping’ people with social introductions and then running into the reality that many Christian singles are not open to changing their romance and marriage expectations to fit reality.
I'm a Christian man in my late 20's actively looking for a wife. This week's digest and last week's digest articulate a number of the reasons why I'm not looking in the church to find a wife, and why I've used dating apps instead.
A couple years ago, I attended a worship event for young Christian professionals (20's and 30's) in my area. It was put on by a handful of nondenominational evangelical churches in and around my suburb. Most of those attending were single and ostensibly open to a relationship.
Despite all this, I was blown away by the relationship-negative messaging at the event. Multiple times during the service, both in the message and *during the worship*, sentiments like "if you're not absolutely completely positive that your relationship (E: is) honoring to God, you should break up" were expressed. While obviously that sentiment is true when interpreted strictly, young people (particularly young women) in a smoke-and-lights worship setting will inevitably interpret this is as a struggle session encouraging a breakup.
The alternative these people present to having a fun, loving, productive relationship is to ensure congregants are living the "holiest" lives they can. The practical ramifications of this ridiculous, Quakerish sentiment are indulging in meaningless self-flagellation, constant reconfiguration of the emotions, and accomplishing nothing tangible with your life -- this is framed as "holiness." (I believe TLP calls this narcissism.)
Between this event and other negative experiences I've had dating in the church, including some similar to what your reader has expressed, I've stopped pursuing women at church. The revealed preference is that this isn't something people want out of church anymore, nor is it something church leaders care to encourage. In fact, churches deploying rhetoric like the above actively take pride in breaking up relationships, not in building them. There's exceptions of course -- my brother is engaged to a girl he met at his church, but the culture there actively encourages and supports marriage, especially among young people.
Dating apps have treated me far better. I've enjoyed nearly every experience I've had, and I've learned something from each of them.
E: a word
I do agree that the church might not be the right place to find a match (sadly).
I went to visit a Shaker community last weekend. Well, guess what - there weren't many people around!! 😁
I know, bad joke, and it was the middle of winter, with few tourists. Still, things like what you describe are making me start to wonder if the American church is turning functionally Shaker. There's a whole genre of books about Christian singleness, and every time I read about another one, I just think, "Why can't we just admit in the church that marriage is good and almost everyone should get married?!!!"
Churches should be full of noisy kids running around, not only old people, as in communist countries.
There's always been Quakerish threads of the American church and of Protestantism historically, going back to the radical Anabaptists post-Reformation. Any thread that emphasizes vibes or the inner light over doctrine falls into this category. It's not a coincidence that these threads are all dominated by women in practice, even when men hold the titles of power and a particularly charismatic man leads the movement. Women excel at navigating social chaos and manipulating men to do their bidding, and the lack of process surrounding actions as drastic as getting read out of meeting lends itself very well to that power. There's similarities in all the various enthusiastic, emotional offshoots -- all the Great Awakenings, Methodism, Pentecostalism, and much of YRR and modern nondenominational evangelicalism. (E: A fantastic case study on this is the Oneida cult, formed in upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening.)
John Adams, the Founding Father, wrote in his autobiography about John Dickinson, the Quaker delegate from Delaware. Even though Dickinson held the title of delegate and was obviously well-respected in his community and his colony/state, Adams noted that he was longhoused by his Quaker wife and his mother into resisting the Revolution because they were terrified at its prospect of destroying his fortune. (https://www.masshist.org/publications/adams-papers/index.php/view/ADMS-01-03-02-0016-0024#sn=36)
Anthony Bradley wrote a great article on Mere Orthodoxy a few years back describing a similar state of affairs in modern evangelicalism. Even though men hold the titles, every effort of the church is spent providing comfort and validation for women rather than actually getting things done, to the detriment of everyone -- women themselves included. (https://mereorthodoxy.com/evangelicals-matrilineal)
"Dating apps have treated me better." Bro must be in the 98th+ percentile. I'm a measly ol' 70-80th percentile of attractiveness, and even though that means you have to talk to 8 other guys before you find one better looking, statistically that means 1-4 matches in 400-1000 swipes on a dating app. For most of us, they are useless. Unless you mean that you used eharmony or match. My impression is that if women have to put up money, then they are more likely to take it seriously and not use it as an ego boost. Having some investment in the outcome might generate better results.
Yeah the accusation here is true. I'm a tall, pretty built white guy with a good career. So apps work for me. But I'm not trying to give advice. My point isn't that you, the person reading this, should use dating apps. My point is that an awful lot of churches don't really care about fostering marriage -- indeed, that they invest more effort into breaking relationships up than they do in putting them together. When boomers or online "trad" influencers tell young men to get off the apps and find a nice church girl, they're not being serious and should largely be disregarded.
That may be the case for many, and I don't know how to tell who's giving sincere advice. But my honest advice as a Millennial is that most men should get off free apps because there's something inherent in in person meeting that vastly improves the likelihood of success (as Christians, not playboys, would define it). The deficiencies of the method (online free apps) are overcome/negated if one is of such high market value that women do not hide or hedge their interest. Makes it easier to meet them but probably no improvement in identifying women of quality. May even be harder in some ways, so I'm neither envious nor bragging. We have different problems due to our different positions. Most are still the same.
TLDR most men should still get off the apps, but we can't just hope a good church girl drops from the sky. Seems like meeting them outside of church is likely to be necessary, due to the psychology involved (if she likes you but you don't make a move, you get placed in the not-people-zone because she deems you insecure and undecisive even though you were just uninterested)
This tracks with some of my own experience, especially when I was a young man. I received some messaging like this and I have OCD/Scrupulosity. Not exactly a formula for relationship success. I wish someone had said the things you said here about the stupidity of this way of thinking to me when I was in my 20s.
I've found that single-sex lonely hearts clubs (of either sex) tend to talk a lot of trash about the opposite sex. Even when I'm at the table with a bunch of single ladies!
Sorry, it's not very winsome.
The unsuccessful hate the successful in almost every realm.
Side note: For some reason, this reminded me of this old trick. If your significant other has a friend (of their same sex, assuming you're in a hetero relationship) you find annoying or otherwise dislike being around, make some casual comments to your SO about how good looking/well-dressed/charming they are. Make them as naturally as possible (e.g., "so-and-so looked so nice tonight" and don't overstate the case (that is, don't compliment their personality if you've previously complained about it). The friend will soon be excluded from your orbit.
I would suggest to your reader-correspondent that he focus his search for a wife on women in their 20s, rather than the 31-34-year-olds who have treated him this way.
Actions speak louder than words. Whatever she may tell suitors - and whatever she may tell herself - the fact that a woman is 31+ years old and still single (not even engaged) belies her claims to want marriage and a family. I'm sure there are the proverbial exceptions that prove the rule, but I've never met one in the flesh.
Absolutely true. I was not too picky to consider women within 5 years of my age but after having given them many chances, their pridefulness got to be too much and I just find that the younger women are more pleasant and interested. I will go where I'm wanted. There's going to be a lot of unmarried Millennial girls because the men of their age cohort are looking at women 10-20 years younger. I wouldn't prefer much younger women if I had my way, but I'm forced to open my mind to it before I get too old.
**real challenges of a relationship with a military officer living overseas**
I understand this Christian man's frustration in his search for a wife, but I think the solution is within reach and doesn't relate to the supposed flaws of a single woman's friend group. While dating can be especially challenging for servicemen, there are practical ways to find a wife.
For Christian military men seeking a wife, I'd suggest focusing on two promising paths: First, consider connecting with Christian women in the communities/countries where you're currently stationed. Many local Christian women (if there are any in say Germany) might be drawn to the idea of marriage to an American serviceman. Second, working with a Christian matchmaker (if you find a good one...any recommendations from the newsletter community?) could help you find women who are specifically open to and excited about being a military wife.
I deeply appreciate the sacrifices our servicemen make for our country. The frequent moves and uncertainty of military life ask a lot not just of them, but of their wives too. While it's understandable that some women feel hesitant about leaving behind their established lives, there are definitely adventurous, faith-filled women who would welcome building a life together within the military community.
For men who are in military service and are looking for wives, it's worth taking the time to find a wife who shares your vision for life on a practical level. The right woman is out there – someone who sees relocating not as leaving things behind, but as an opportunity to build something meaningful together.
I met my wife 38 years ago through a personal ad (after meeting many ladies that way). Online dating services are the modern equivalent of personal ads in the old days. While there are all kinds of people participating (including dishonest), you may be able to find a good match. My son met his wonderful wife though a secular dating app. He specified one key word he was looking for: "Christian".
Personal ads had no pictures and required meeting in person to explore a connection. Online dating is not the same.
A tendency in human nature: people want what they cannot have (reverse psychology). I speculate that the male writer may have acted too interested too soon, causing the lady to not find him attractive enough. Had he perhaps kept her a little more at arm's length, and made her work harder for his attention, she might have yearned more for him (regardless of her friends).
Unpopular opinion, but I take the view that playing games like this is a bad idea.
I agree that playing games is not good, but unfortunately, restraining your enthusiasm is sometimes necessary to gain respect. It's just a fact of life. Throwing yourself at someone with more enthusiasm than the other currently feels is often a turnoff. I learned this the hard way as a nerdy engineer, during 10 years of seeking a wife, that the ladies I acted too interested in, lost interest in me. Eventually, after meeting many, many ladies, God brought the right match into my life, and she proposed to me on our third date. I was *shocked*, and said, whoa, slow down, we barely know each other. After 5 months, she was crying one evening. Why? "You won't marry me! (sob)". I sighed, yes I guess it's the right time finally, and I proposed. We've been happily married 37 years. But I had to learn a little "street smarts" about not throwing myself at people, like I had in my earlier years.
I would agree that it's not a matter necessarily of playing games. As an enthusiastic sort of person (and an engineer) myself, I had to learn to not display too much of that too soon, else salesmen and other folks would try to rip me off. It's a common misperception to think that because someone appreciates the positives, they're blind to the negatives.
You should read Vox Days blog Sigma Game. The last two posts were about this very subject:
https://open.substack.com/pub/sigmagame/p/sabotage